30. Female Pioneers in Japanese Animation 7-④ Tomoko Saitō
*This is the English version of #28.
――Mother-daughter relationships are tough, aren't they?
Yeah, they are tough. Ultimately, I was also at fault. After my father died, I thought I had to be a good, considerate daughter for my mother who must have felt lonely. I felt that was my responsibility too, that I had made her that way, so I just had to accept it. However, because of this situation, my boss at the time did some behind-the-scenes negotiating within the dairy company and arranged for me to be transferred from Niigata to Kanagawa. They made it happen as the company’s first female transfer. It seems they framed it as a transfer for me as a management candidate. At that time, Corporate Identity (CI) was trending globally. It wasn't just about chasing sales; it questioned the company's social image and involved redesigning various internal systems. So, it wasn't just about changing the company logo. For example, it included initiatives like work-style reform, reorganizing document management, and reviewing workplace relationships, including promoting women's advancement. I was asked to serve on the CI committee at the branch.
――When was that?
It was after the bubble burst, in the mid-90s, around 1993 or 1994. The bubble ended the sales-driven approach, and since food was considered recession-proof, the impact of the bubble was relatively minor for us. Still, it was a time when we had to rethink the company's purpose within society and set new goals for our activities.
However, within the CI initiative on women’s roles in the company, there was no overt discussion about women's advancement or reforming women's work styles. Male-centric corporate theory remained central. So I stated, "I believe how we approach women's career development and promotion within the company through CI will be critically important for our future." Yet, far from revisiting the male-dominated internal evaluation system, including wages, the company never even addressed women's working conditions. There was absolutely no clear response from management.
――Even in the 90s, that kind of discrimination still existed.
Yes, it did. It's not that distant a past. So, I kept working at the dairy company, but one day, Mr. Yamaga approached me and said, "I'm thinking of getting “Uru in Blue” moving again. Would you like to come to Gainax?"
That was 1998. Even then, the food industry paid low wages, but learning the anime industry paid even less made me worry about the future. I agonized over it, but decided doing what I wanted was more important! So I quit my job and decided to go to Gainax. My mother, who knew Mr. Yamaga well, didn't resist this time, saying, "If you think it's good, then it's good to me." However, about a week after I told Mr. Yamaga, "I'm going to Gainax," the news broke about Gainax's tax evasion scandal.
――That was after “Neon Genesis Evangelion” became a huge hit, right? But it was just a week after he told you they’d let you into the company?
Yes. My mother woke me up that morning saying, "Isn't that Mr. Yamaga's company? It's in the news. Are you sure it’s okay for you to start working there?" That same night, Mr. Yamaga called and said, "It’s okay for you to come to Gainax," so I wasn't worried. I also left my previous company on good terms. However, even after joining Gainax, the tax evasion issue meant the "Uru in Blue" project couldn't proceed. Ultimately, the main "Uru in Blue" project had to be stopped. Since I wasn't an animator, Mr. Yasuhiro Takeda (Note 2) told me something like, "Well, since you came to us, we’ll figure something out," and we discussed what I could do. Mr. Takeda was probably troubled too. Then, around that time, there was talk that Gainax's event culture, which had started with the studio participating in various events, was fading. So it became, "Alright, let's do events," then "Alright, let's go to Wonder Festival," then "Apply for Comiket." From there, Gainax handled booth planning, original merchandise production, and booth setup for the events we exhibited at. My experience from my dairy company days helping with regional and national academic conferences, assisting with clinic openings, and creating pamphlets really came in handy. And at Gainax, there was no environment that hindered my work because I was a woman, or because of working hours, or because of gender disparities–like, what gender disparities? It became an environment where I could work to my heart's content. That came with its own set of challenges, but it was great to be free from the stress of not being able to do my job.
――What was your job title when you joined Gainax?
Producer. But since the "Uru in Blue" project had stalled, even with the title, it was like, "Who are you?" At that time, there were several people in the Yamaga Group team, and we all ended up in a sort of internal unemployment state. I was internally unemployed right from the moment I joined Gainax. It was a situation where everyone was figuring out what to do. At that time, the "Uru in Blue" flight simulator project was moving forward, so I helped out on the sidelines while also working on generating revenue from enterprises outside of anime. I visited game stores and bookstores in Akihabara to handle sales for our in-house projects like video games and CD-ROM art books. We also held events in Akihabara for our in-house PC games like strip mahjong and typing software.
――What exactly is strip mahjong?
It's a PC mahjong game. When you, the player, win, you can strip the character you're playing against. That's unthinkable nowadays, right? At Comiket, we even produced our own telephone cards featuring artwork that bordered on 18+ depictions of our characters, selling them at our corporate booth. Because of that, I got pretty good at managing lines of people. We did more than just Comiket, Wonder Festival, and the character shows that existed back then. We also held our own fan events, anime screenings, SF conventions, and the Gainax 20th Anniversary event. The title on my business card changed to Product Development, but I became a producer again when we were localizing a Korean animated film.
―――What kind of work was that?
At one point, we heard about an amazing animated film produced in Korea. Gainax decided to import it, localize it, and distribute it ourselves. The film was “Sky Blue” (or “Wonderful Days” in the Japanese and Korean releases). It was filmed at the Namyangju Film Studio in South Korea. This studio is also famous for being the filming location for the Korean movie "Joint Security Area." For this anime production, they built and filmed using life-size motorcycle models and miniature towns about three to four square meters big. It was a large-scale project involving the Korean government. I handled the entire process for the film's localization: the contract, script translation and Japanese script production coordination, importing the main production data, video data, music data, film and promotional materials, sound production coordination, casting, promotion, pamphlet production, creating the Japanese version film for screening, and distribution operations. The reason we imported the film and handled distribution ourselves was that if we were going to release the theatrical film "Uru in Blue," we needed to understand the mechanics of theatrical film distribution ourselves. Similar to the music publishing I mentioned earlier, we needed to experience firsthand, not just through books or hearsay, how the entire process works from production to screening, how to best deliver the film to audiences, what constitutes quality for a theatrical release, and what aspects require careful management and oversight. This included hands-on experience with production, finances, and distribution. Gainax hadn't produced an original theatrical feature film since “Royal Space Force.”
Furthermore, the relationship between South Korea's music rights management organization and Japan's JASRAC wasn't as established back then. We also lacked sufficient legal understanding of the music industry's business mechanisms, leading to unexpectedly high music costs. We learned the hard way that when screening globally, you must consolidate rights for all relevant copyrighted works and handle them properly to avoid issues in the target country. This also connects to the significance of having an in-house music publisher, as mentioned earlier.
Back then, since movie tickets were paper stubs, movie theater staff would carefully paste each torn stub onto A3-sized sheets of paper, organized by date, to track attendance. They would then submit these sheets to us, the distribution company. I still vividly remember the weight of each individual stub from that time.
――So the ticket stubs were pasted as proof of sales.
Yes. That formed the basis for calculating each party's share. And through handling this film's distribution, I learned many things not found in textbooks. Beyond obvious differences like Kodak film color versus Fuji film color, I learned about the quality of the emulsifiers used. Not that it's useful now, though. I also learned a great deal about how Dolby Digital sound is recorded onto film, how it degrades, and situations where it reverts to stereo audio. The sound on the film we screened in Niigata was apparently damaged by the previous movie theater's projector, resulting in terrible audio. When I consulted Imagica, they said, "Let's make a new print," and promptly re-printed it and sent it to the Niigata theater. What passion for projection quality from the people supporting cinema. However, making a print for screening was quite expensive, so I thought at the time that for low-budget theatrical films with limited budgets, maybe it would be better to go digital sooner rather than later.
――――From what you've said so far, your activities seem quite different from the actual production of the anime itself. (laughs)
It's quite different from what you'd call conventional anime production, right? We've continued these activities precisely because we knew we couldn't achieve what we wanted to do with our projects using standard anime production methods, and we've been exploring concrete ways to create the works we want to make.
One such activity, again not anime, was when Yamaga directed Wagner's opera "Das Rheingold" several years ago. There, I handled stage setup arrangements, program production, original merchandise planning and production, costume design, and costume production. And why would an anime director direct an opera? It also meant pursuing the true meaning of watching a film in a theater. Most people don't watch a single film dozens of times in theaters unless it's a special favorite of theirs. The film experience is about encountering that specific film in that moment within the theater space. It's a unique experience found only in the theater and includes whether or not that film will have an impact on one's life. It's similar to stage theater productions. We consider this meaning crucial for our projects. It's about that once-in-a-lifetime encounter with a work and the live experience. We believe this is incredibly important for both the audience and the work itself. It gets to the heart of why people go to the movie theaters to see films. How can we best give audiences the experience of that live theater feeling? What should we do in anime film production to achieve this? We're currently working on building this into a concrete methodology by applying opera techniques and structuring it as a specific production approach.
This is a bit off topic, but I often wonder what exactly the job title "producer" represents. The duties expected of a producer in a production committee might be relatively clear. But I haven't been able to articulate my own vision of what a producer is. I'm constantly thinking about what's needed to take the theatrical film "Uru in Blue" to the next stage. To achieve that, I've done absolutely everything possible, and that won't change now or in the future. However, the reality is there's no specific role for someone doing that kind of work. For now, the only thing available is this vague title of "producer."
――Definitely, it does seem like a general jack-of-all-trades, a sort of general producer role, doesn't it?
But I feel "general producer" is a different job altogether. "Jack-of-all-trades" fits better, actually. When you need to dig deep into one thing, it's best to leave it to the specialist. But connecting a specialized field to something outside that specialty requires a system to make the connection happen. Specialized fields don't just connect easily on their own. It's somewhat akin to how Japanese universities have departments not only divided into the sciences and the humanities, but also further subdivided into specialized fields. Bridging these fields requires a different system or approach. I see my role as creating and executing this mechanism. That's why I'm constantly in a position of trial and error. With anime adaptations of existing source material, the original work is already perfectly complete. Honestly, there's almost nothing anyone other than the original creator can do to change the work itself. So, as a producer, my focus is on things like: Is the budget being executed properly? Is the production schedule on track? What do I need to do as the rights liaison? How do we deliver this to the audience? How can we commercialize it?
In the original project I'm currently working on, "Uru in Blue," the work I'm doing to lay down the foundation for the project feels like something I can't quite put into words. It doesn't seem to fit the typical definition of a producer's role as it's commonly understood.
――Do you think the role of producer is suited for women?
It depends on what kind of producer you're envisioning. Regarding whether it's suited for women, I don't think the gender of the person in question is related to whether or not that person is suited to the job. Also, the required work style likely varies by company and project. I feel the job descriptions of various roles get conflated, making a clear answer difficult... However, looking at the number of women in positions of influence and the gender ratio at industry gatherings, even though the number of women in the industry is increasing, I still feel the anime industry is more of a male-dominated society. That said, whether male or female, I think the right person for the job is someone who can passionately and persistently figure out how and to whom they should present that work to society without giving up.
――Finally, could you share a message for young people aspiring to work in the anime industry?
I feel the type of talent sought after varies by the production company. Furthermore, I don't think we can assume the current methods of planning anime projects and production workflows will continue unchanged in the future. Unlike typical companies, the combination of people and the way a work is made can turn what was once considered good into something bad, or what was once considered bad into something good. So, a flexible mindset that allows you to observe the situation directly in front of you is probably necessary. Therefore, I think this is an industry where you won't know if you're a good fit until you give it a try. So, if you want to do it, just give it a shot. And I think it's essential to work while being aware of what you're looking at and where you stand in the production process, in other words, to know how much you can enjoy your work.
――Do you have any thoughts about the younger generation, especially women, joining your company recently?
Animators are specialists, so I'll exclude them from this discussion. I believe the anime industry has no gender pay gap and no overtime gap either. That said, I'm not sure if the current situation surrounding anime is truly beneficial for young women today. Whether they continue creating works in the anime industry will become clear in a few years. I sincerely hope that by then, they'll be firmly grounded and still enjoying the process of making their works.
――Thank you for sharing your valuable insights today.
*Note 2: Yasuhiro Takeda was a board member at Gainax.
May 2025. Interview conducted in Kichijōji, Tokyo. Interviewed by Miyuki Yonemura and Akiko Sugawa-Shimada. Compiled and Edited by Akiko Sugawa-Shimada. Translated by Gabrielle Dulys.
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