Debian Voting Information / 2006 / Debian Project Leader Elections 2006

Debian Project Leader Debate, 2006

1. -!- Topic for #debian-dpl-debate: 2006 DPL Election Debate HERE TODAY at 22:30 UTC | Rules: http://tinyurl.com/hxl2g | Discussion in #debian-dpl-discuss | Ensure Sanity: /ignore #debian-dpl-debate JOINS PARTS QUITS
2. -!- Topic set by dondelelcaro [n=don@archimedes.ucr.edu] [Thu Mar 16 11:51:30 2006]
3. -!- gravity [n=david@pool-141-157-184-73.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #debian-dpl-debate
4. <@don_armstrong> Welcome everyone to the 2006 Debian Project Leader Debate
5. <@don_armstrong> The debate this year will be split into three separate sections
6. <@don_armstrong> the first will be a composed response, where the candidates will answer questions that you all have submitted
7. <@don_armstrong> we will spend the first 30-45 minutes on this section, the candidates will have 6 minutes to compose a response.
8. <@don_armstrong> we'll then take a break, during which I'll explain the second part.
9. <@don_armstrong> if you want to know in advance how it all will work, see /topic, where the debate rules are explained.
10. <@don_armstrong> we're currently awaiting a few of the candidates, so hang on just a second for them to arrive.
11. <@don_armstrong> please feel free to discuss what is happening in the debate in -discuss; throughout the debate questions that you pose will be picked up by panelists
12. <@don_armstrong> these questions will be used wherever possible.
13. <@don_armstrong> today, Thaddeus H. Black, David Nusinow, Martin-Éric Racine, and MJ Ray will be pulling questions from you
14. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v madduck] by ChanServ
15. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [-v madduck] by don_armstrong
16. <@don_armstrong> Ok; sorry about the delay there, just getting everyone situated
17. <@don_armstrong> The first question which the candidates will have 6 minutes to respond to:
18. <@don_armstrong> Why are you running for DPL this year?
19. <+c|> Begin Reponse: Anthony Towns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2100
20. <+d|> I'm running for DPL this year because I think that's a good way to
21. <+e|> encourage Debian to prioritise the things listed in my platform: making
22. <+f|> sure we're continually doing interesting stuff and that we're all aware
23. <+b|> of it; making sure we keep new blood flowing through the project; and
24. <+c|> making sure we don't leave thinking about how we do things until this
25. <+d|> time next year.
26. <+e|> EOT: Anthony Towns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2100
27. <+f|> Begin Reponse: Ted Walther URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2099
28. <+b|> I'm running for DPL this year because Debian has some serious problems that I'm in a better position to help solve as DPL, rather than as a private developer.
29. <+c|> EOT: Ted Walther URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2099
30. <+d|> Begin Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2101
31. <+e|> I'm standing as DPL this year because I believe I can do a good job of leading Debian.
32. <+f|> I thought long and hard about standing last year, but left it too late. After the
33. <+b|> election, several of my DD friends complained that I hadn't stood, as they wanted to
34. <+c|> vote for somebody they could trust. This year, I considered my options again and this
35. <+d|> time I'm ready. I believe I can help improve Debian and make the project a more fun and
36. <+e|> productive place for all of us.
37. <+f|> EOT: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2101
38. <+b|> Begin Reponse: Bill Allombert URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2102
39. <+c|> I wrote in my platform:
40. <+d|> "I was at FOSDEM this week-end, and someone told me that Lars Wirzenius (which
41. <+e|> was also there) had denominated himself. At this point, I was not comfortable
42. <+f|> to vote for any of the remaining candidate, so I decided to take the matter in
43. <+b|> my hands and nominated myself, when it was clear no one else was nominating
44. <+c|> themself. However, I am not Lars, and I will not try to replace him."
45. <+d|> EOT: Bill Allombert URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2102
46. <+e|> Begin Reponse: Jeroen van Wolffelaar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2103
47. <+f|> I am running for DPL because I think Debian is a great project, and I want
48. <+b|> to contribute my share to it. I like working on Debian, but at times, I
49. <+c|> think communication could be much better. I'd like to work on those issues,
50. <+d|> because we're a project of skilled people.
51. <+e|> .
52. <+f|> I think I can contribute well to try to resolve those.
53. <+b|> EOT: Jeroen van Wolffelaar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2103
54. <+c|> Begin Reponse: AndreasSchuldei URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2104
55. <+d|> I run for DPL this year because I would like to bring my talents of
56. <+e|> good leadership, organisation and understanding of social groups to
57. <+f|> optimal use for Debian.
58. <+b|> .
59. <+c|> I started working on DPL stuff last year already and would like to
60. <+d|> continue that during the next term, to carry over expertise and
61. <+e|> knowledge.
62. <+f|> .
63. <+b|> Debian needs to change its culture to remain competitative and become
64. <+c|> more purpose driven and friendly. I would like to help it doing that.
65. <+d|> .
66. <+e|> With the DPL team that will support me in that I have very good
67. <+f|> chances of accomplishing that.
68. <+b|> EOT: AndreasSchuldei URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2104
69. <@don_armstrong> second question, again 6 minutes:
70. <@don_armstrong> Do you feel that being DPL would drastically alter the work you already
71. <@don_armstrong> do for Debian? How?
72. <@don_armstrong> (I've given the candidates an extra minute on this question, because I originally mentioned that I would send them the questions to -candidates)
73. <+c|> Begin Reponse: Ted Walther URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2105
74. <+d|> As DPL, I'd have a bigger hat on, and be better able to help conflicting parties come to agreement. Apart from the added work of speaking to groups and holding press conferences, there wouldn't be too much other change; I'm already a fairly political animal.
75. <+e|> EOT: Ted Walther URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2105
76. <+f|> Begin Reponse: AndreasSchuldei URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2106
77. <+b|> No, my work would not change very much. During the last term I served
78. <+c|> on the DPL team already and know how things work and have faced some
79. <+d|> of the problems we are also going to face this coming term.
80. <+e|> .
81. <+f|> I feel I am well prepared and ready for the task.
82. <+b|> EOT: AndreasSchuldei URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2106
83. <+c|> Begin Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2107
84. <+d|> I don't think that being DPL will _drastically_ alter the work I already do for Debian.
85. <+e|> It _will_ cause me to look for more help on some of the tasks I currently work on -
86. <+f|> package maintenance and CD/DVD work, as I expect I may have less time to do those tasks
87. <+b|> unadided. I still expect to be able to help on those tasks, regardless.
88. <+c|> EOT: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2107
89. <+d|> Begin Reponse: Anthony Towns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2108
90. <+e|> I don't believe this would dramatically alter my work for Debian; rather that it
91. <+f|> would allow me a bit more flexibility in achieving the goals I just mentioned and
92. <+b|> thus let me give them a higher priority than otherwise; so that instead of just
93. <+c|> focussing on my niches, I could reasonably go to people and say "you're doing great
94. <+d|> stuff that deserves to be announced (or better supported, or made more official, or
95. <+e|> whatever)" and get that to happen -- and I think that sort of activity from the DPL and
96. <+f|> the Debian leadership in general is needed.
97. <+b|> EOT: Anthony Towns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2108
98. <+c|> Begin Reponse: Jeroen van Wolffelaar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2110
99. <+d|> No, I'm already working on Debian in general, and not limiting myself to
100. <+e|> just my packages. Amongst others by being part of the current DPL team, but
101. <+f|> also by contributing to release management and infrastructural tasks.
102. <+b|> .
103. <+c|> But, being DPL will allow me to work on some core parts of Debian I
104. <+d|> wouldn't otherwise easily be able to do. I'd like to work on enabling
105. <+e|> others to work well on Debian, by motivating them, and working on
106. <+f|> problematic friction points in the project.
107. <+b|> .
108. <+c|> I don't think this will conflict, rather, those tasks (DPL and non-DPL)
109. <+d|> will complement eachother.
110. <+e|> EOT: Jeroen van Wolffelaar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2110
111. <+f|> Begin Reponse: Bill Allombert URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2109
112. <+b|> It would. This would certainly be a new challenge for me
113. <+c|> since my involvement in Debian has been limited in scope.
114. <+d|> However, I always have an eye on the distribution as a
115. <+e|> whole instead as a collection of part. This is something
116. <+f|> important for a DPL.
117. <+b|> EOT: Bill Allombert URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2109
118. <@don_armstrong> third question, again 6 minutes to respond:
119. <@don_armstrong> There have been two expulsion procedures started now. Do you think
120. <@don_armstrong> they were inapropriate or do you think they are a reflection of real
121. <@don_armstrong> problems in the project?
122. <+c|> Begin Reponse: Anthony Towns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2113
123. <+d|> I don't think the options are mutually exclusive -- I tend to think
124. <+e|> expulsion was inappropriate, and the fact that it's being considered
125. <+f|> is a reflection of real problems in the project. I think it was inappropriate
126. <+b|> because it's too heavy-handed: expulsion should be a last resort, made only
127. <+c|> after other more moderate attempts have been made to ease the conflict and
128. <+d|> failed. I hope that over the next year we'll start exploring what ways work
129. <+e|> and don't, so that we do have some alternatives other than "ignore the problem"
130. <+f|> and "expel people until the problem stops".
131. <+b|> EOT: Anthony Towns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2113
132. <@don_armstrong> next response
133. <+c|> Begin Reponse: Ted Walther URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2114
134. <+d|> I think the first expulsion procedure, against Andrew Suffield, was inappropriate. Since Sven Luther
135. <+e|> has threatened me with physical harm in the past, I don't feel unbiased enough to comment on whether
136. <+f|> his expulsion procedure is appropriate. However I would like to note that Sven Luther was quite vocally
137. <+b|> in support of all the other expulsion procedures that were initiated in the past. Is he getting his
138. <+c|> just desserts?
139. <+d|> EOT: Ted Walther URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2114
140. <@don_armstrong> next response
141. <+e|> Begin Reponse: Bill Allombert URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2115
142. <+f|> The whole concept of removing developers by acclamation is inappropriate but
143. <+b|> this is also a reflection of real problems in the project. The DPL has
144. <+c|> not been very visible in the last months and the project has sufferred from a
145. <+d|> lack of direction.
146. <+e|> EOT: Bill Allombert URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2115
147. <@don_armstrong> next response
148. <+f|> Begin Reponse: AndreasSchuldei URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2116
149. <+b|> While the expulsion procedure was designed to kick people out of the
150. <+c|> project, it is extremly hard to do it with the current process since
151. <+d|> it requires a degree of unity within the project that we did not have
152. <+e|> in a long time.
153. <+f|> .
154. <+b|> It is however a tool to express in a convincing and somewhat
155. <+c|> threatening way "We really have a problem with the way you
156. <+d|> behave. Think about it. Hard."··
157. <+e|> .
158. <+f|> Unfortunatly this tool is rather coarse and undifferentiated. We can
159. <+b|> not yet say something like "We think you are a bully and would like
160. <+c|> you to change, since we value you anyway."··
161. <+d|> .
162. <+e|> On the other hand, those people it was used on so far really had a
163. <+f|> hard time to understand more sublime tones and criticism.··
164. <+b|> .
165. <+c|> To have SOME tool is however a good start.··
166. <+d|> .
167. <+e|> I think the debian community needs a way to communicate drastic
168. <+f|> disapproval. The current expulsion process can in reality do only
169. <+b|> that. IF we want to work with formal processes we need both ways to
170. <+c|> express the degree of our disapproval better and also an effective way
171. <+d|> to expell people from the project.··
172. <+e|> .
173. <+f|> It would be much better if our community managed to correct
174. <+b|> behaviouristic missfits in a more immediatly and private manner
175. <+c|> though, without bureaucratic means.
176. <+d|> .
177. <+e|> The two expulsion were intended to remove disruptive people from
178. <+f|> the project. It is important that Debian learns to handle those
179. <+b|> cases in order to keep the working climate healthy and be able to
180. <+c|> focus on the work. I think both candiates needed such a strong
181. <+d|> reminder that they should not cross the lines quite so often.
182. <+e|> ~
183. <+f|> EOT: AndreasSchuldei URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2116
184. <@don_armstrong> next response
185. <+b|> Begin Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2117
186. <+c|> The expulsions are clearly a sign of problems in the project. I don't believe
187. <+d|> that they are necessarily inappropriate, but starting expulsion proceedings
188. <+e|> should be considered a last resort.
189. <+f|> .
190. <+b|> The two expulsions that have been raised are both for social issues, which saddens
191. <+c|> me. I really wish that we could get on together without some of the friction that
192. <+d|> has characterised some recent discussions in the project. Maybe that makes me a
193. <+e|> "teletubby" in some people's eyes, but I have a strong belief in good, hard
194. <+f|> technical debate _without_ people falling into personal insults. Getting angry and
195. <+b|> rude to each other helps none of us...
196. <+c|> EOT: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2117
197. <@don_armstrong> next response
198. <+d|> Begin Reponse: Jeroen van Wolffelaar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2119
199. <+e|> Expulsion is a very harsh measure to take, or even to consider. The fact
200. <+f|> that the process has been initiated twice is already a bad sign on itself.
201. <+b|> .
202. <+c|> I don't think the existance of such procedure is a problem. In any large
203. <+d|> project, especially one with strict entrance measures, there should be a
204. <+e|> way to also decide to reverse the entrance of someone if someone's
205. <+f|> seriously harmful to the project, externally or internally. However,
206. <+b|> mediation should really be happening beforehand, preferably with the DPL
207. <+c|> involved, to see if the differences can be resolved via less extreme
208. <+d|> measures. It's an ultimate action.
209. <+e|> .
210. <+f|> About the two cases in question, I don't think we should judge on the
211. <+b|> rightfulness of starting the procedure, but rather, whether I think they
212. <+c|> should succeed. I was supportive of the first one, and don't know about the
213. <+d|> second one, I've been talking with the involved parties, and will decide
214. <+e|> later.
215. <+f|> EOT: Jeroen van Wolffelaar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2119
216. <@don_armstrong> next question, the candidates were asked this 2 minutes ago:
217. <@don_armstrong> Q: Since every DPL for the last few years has failed to communicate regularly despite their best goodwill, do you think you'd do better? If so, how and why?
218. <@don_armstrong> (this, unless I've totally lost count, is question #4)
219. <+b|> Begin Reponse: Ted Walther URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2120
220. <+c|> I think Debian's leaders have had great communication in the past. If people
221. <+d|> have questions, they can email them in. Providing regular reports is the
222. <+e|> secretaries job. I think Manoj deserves a raise, because he has done a great
223. <+f|> job as project secretary. Also, Martin Schulze Debian Weekly News has filled in
224. <+b|> any communications gap that a DPL would otherwise fill. No need to reinvent the
225. <+c|> wheel when Martin Schulze is doing such a good job.
226. <+d|> EOT: Ted Walther URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2120
227. <@don_armstrong> next response
228. <+e|> Begin Reponse: Bill Allombert URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2121
229. <+f|> I think I will do better because I will have someone acting as "secretary"
230. <+b|> making sure I do reports. Also I will report what I am doing instead of
231. <+c|> what I have done.
232. <+d|> .
233. <+e|> I don't think tbm failed to communicate, at least during his first term.
234. <+f|> EOT: Bill Allombert URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2121
235. <@don_armstrong> next response
236. <+b|> Begin Reponse: Anthony Towns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2122
237. <+c|> Communicating regularly is very difficult, and not something that should
238. <+d|> be underestimated. For me (eg, as release manager), the biggest problem
239. <+e|> is finding something that I think is worth saying, because "No, we're not
240. <+f|> ready to release yet for the same reasons as last time" isn't very fun, or
241. <+b|> very motivating. I think the DPL has similar problems -- it's great to make
242. <+c|> posts when exciting things get done, but when you're trying to solve difficult
243. <+d|> ongoing problems, you often don't get that regularly.
244. <+e|> .
245. <+f|> So my main answer is twofold: first, that thanks to the wonders of blogging,
246. <+b|> there's plenty of opportunity to talk about things in a fun interesting way
247. <+c|> even when they're not finished, or not important enough to warrant a mailing
248. <+d|> list post; and second, I think communication should be something the entire
249. <+e|> project does, so I'd rather focus on encouraging other developers to post interesting
250. <+f|> tidbits regularly than worry about the DPL repeating DWN's job.
251. <+b|> EOT: Anthony Towns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2122
252. <@don_armstrong> next response
253. <+c|> Begin Reponse: Jeroen van Wolffelaar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2123
254. <+d|> I will definitely do better. If elected, I'll reserve a fixed minimum
255. <+e|> amount of time each week for DPL tasks, which include maintaining an
256. <+f|> agenda, and amongst others outwards communication. After all, that's a main
257. <+b|> point of my platform.
258. <+c|> .
259. <+d|> Also, I'll be working together with a team of good communicators, who I'll
260. <+e|> happily lend opportunities to speak about DPL-related issues whereever
261. <+f|> possible. They could offload some of the more 'easy' tasks too, at times.
262. <+b|> .
263. <+c|> Additionally, the review moments are meant to be 4 points where there'll
264. <+d|> be a summary report of all DPL ongoing issues, supplementing the per-issue
265. <+e|> reports.
266. <+f|> EOT: Jeroen van Wolffelaar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2123
267. <@don_armstrong> next response
268. <+b|> Begin Reponse: AndreasSchuldei URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2124
269. <+c|> Yes, I am quite sure I will do better. My team and i already started
270. <+d|> the *open* work in a public IRC channel and we intent to have regular
271. <+e|> meetings in the open, dealing with questions and issues that will come
272. <+f|> up.
273. <+b|> .
274. <+c|> I do hope that this new transparency and openness will help the
275. <+d|> project to understand the office of DPL better and also give us much
276. <+e|> more traction within the project when we need to initiate change.
277. <+f|> .
278. <+b|> Again it prooved very valueable to see last years communication
279. <+c|> attempts and how they worked out ... or failed to do so, in order to
280. <+d|> be able to make the right adjustments to the way we work.
281. <+e|> EOT: AndreasSchuldei URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2124
282. <@don_armstrong> next response
283. <+f|> Begin Reponse: steveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2125
284. <+b|> Communication from the DPL has been a bugbear for several years. Several DPLs
285. <+c|> have faithfully promised to improve this, and true to form the candidates this
286. <+d|> year have done the same.
287. <+e|> .
288. <+f|> I believe I can do better, but then of course I _would_ say that :-)
289. <+b|> .
290. <+c|> I have a track record of keeping status reports going once I commit to them,
291. <+d|> e.g. the monthly treasurer reports for debian-uk. There are 2 keys: finding the
292. <+e|> time and being prepared to admit nothing has visibly happened. I believe I can
293. <+f|> do both.
294. <+b|> EOT: steveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2125
295. <@don_armstrong> question #5, again 6 minutes:
296. <@don_armstrong> Over the years, we have seen a sad trend: Whoever gets elected as
297. <@don_armstrong> a DPL is a prominent, active member of the community. The new DPL then
298. <@don_armstrong> acts as he is expected for a couple of months, but soon thereafter the
299. <@don_armstrong> interest seems to wear down, and we end up losing a valuable
300. <@don_armstrong> contributor. Why do you think this happens? We know you don't have a
301. <@don_armstrong> crystal ball, but do you think this will happen to you? How will you
302. <@don_armstrong> avoid it?
303. <@don_armstrong> we'll ask one more of these questions, then take a 5 minute break
304. <@don_armstrong> to answer a request, I'll try to make a pause between responses where possible
305. <+c|> Begin Reponse: Ari Pollak URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2126
306. <+d|> That wouldn't be a problem for me because I'm neither a prominent nor an active member of the community.
307. <+e|> EOT: Ari Pollak URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2126
308. <+f|> Begin Reponse: Ted Walther URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2127
309. <+b|> I think DPL's suddenly go silent because they run up against the true ruling
310. <+c|> powers in Debian. Unlike most of the previous DPL's, I was there on IRC when
311. <+d|> the gutting of the DPL office was being discussed and implemented. Martin
312. <+e|> Michlmayr in his blog only recently stated what I have known for years.
313. <+f|> .
314. <+b|> However, that can all change. The DPL office may have been defanged, but it
315. <+c|> still has claws, if a developer has been in the project long enough and knows
316. <+d|> how things work and why things have been done the way they are.
317. <+e|> EOT: Ted Walther URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2127
318. <+f|> Begin Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2129
319. <+b|> There's nothing specific about the DPL post here. Debian has a history of causing
320. <+c|> burnout in people performing lots of its key tasks. Constantly finding time to do
321. <+d|> tasks that are often quite thankless can be difficult for the best of us, and I'd
322. <+e|> be lying if I said I don't expect it to be an issue.
323. <+f|> .
324. <+b|> Setting aside a guaranteed minimum amount of time each week to do DPL work will help;
325. <+c|> equally, so will setting aside some personal time where I will _not_ do DPL work
326. <+d|> excepting emergency.
327. <+e|> .
328. <+f|> Also, I don't have much of a life to intrude... *grin*
329. <+b|> EOT: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2129
330. <+c|> Begin Reponse: Bill Allombert URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2130
331. <+d|> This does not entireley reflect my experience with previous DPL, so I cannot
332. <+e|> explain a phenomena I did not observe myself. My plan to avid this is to
333. <+f|> involve sufficient people so I do not get burn out
334. <+b|> EOT: Bill Allombert URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2130
335. <+c|> Begin Reponse: Anthony Towns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2131
336. <+d|> Being in any highly visible part of Debian puts you in a position
337. <+e|> where you can get worn down pretty quickly, simply because there
338. <+f|> are so many people who want good things out of Debian, because
339. <+b|> they all have their own ideas, and any conflict in those ideas gets
340. <+c|> brought to bear on the visible folks. I've been involved at that level
341. <+d|> for a fair while now, and I think I'll be able to put up with it for a
342. <+e|> year as DPL without getting flustered by it.
343. <+f|> EOT: Anthony Towns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2131
344. <+b|> Begin Reponse: AndreasSchuldei URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2132
345. <+c|> This is a phenomenon that I had the opportunity to watch from near by
346. <+d|> twice in a row: once with Martin and then again with Branden.
347. <+e|> .
348. <+f|> I assume that people suffer from the tension that they want to change
349. <+b|> things and despite their best effords dont manage, since they run
350. <+c|> against barriers that they did not expect, or at least not in this
351. <+d|> form or strength.
352. <+e|> .
353. <+f|> In Brandens case there were also private miss-happs which we can only
354. <+b|> hope that they wont come uppon us.
355. <+c|> .
356. <+d|> Empowering the team around me early on would at least make sure that i
357. <+e|> can be run over by trucks etc without leaving the project in that kind
358. <+f|> of dilemma again.
359. <+b|> EOT: AndreasSchuldei URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2132
360. <+c|> Begin Reponse: Jeroen van Wolffelaar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2133
361. <+d|> Anyway, I don't think that the trend is really there, Bdale and Martin
362. <+e|> Michlmayr are at least still active, Bdale even as DPL team member.
363. <+f|> .
364. <+b|> Anyway, I will keep treating Debian work as fun. During the past year, I've
365. <+c|> seen some difficult issues take away a lot of energy from the DPL team. I
366. <+d|> will do my best to ensure that the upcoming year will still be fun to work
367. <+e|> on some core areas in Debian.
368. <+f|> .
369. <+b|> I haven't myself worn down from a year's worth of DPL team issues, and
370. <+c|> I'm confident I won't let this happen this time either. A positive view
371. <+d|> brings you far, and I believe I have such positive view.
372. <+e|> EOT: Jeroen van Wolffelaar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2133
373. <@don_armstrong> last question for this segment, again 6 minutes
374. <@don_armstrong> How would you enforce a policy of documenting every role and project timetable in Debian, to enable easy staff changes for every task?
375. <@don_armstrong> (or if not enforce, encourage)
376. <@don_armstrong> we're going to give an extra 2 minutes to this question, because it was phrased suboptimally
377. <@don_armstrong> (my bad)
378. <@don_armstrong> ================================================================================
379. <+f|> Begin Reponse: AndreasSchuldei URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2136
380. <+b|> I simply would not enforce/encourage such a policy. In my oppinion
381. <+c|> debian is a lot about grassroots movements and people voting by
382. <+d|> working on something they like.
383. <+e|> .
384. <+f|> I would try to reglement as little as possible. We have enough
385. <+b|> bureaucratic rules, we need less, not more.
386. <+c|> EOT: AndreasSchuldei URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2136
387. <@don_armstrong> ================================================================================
388. <+d|> Begin Reponse: Anthony Towns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2138
389. <+e|> Err, I wouldn't. I think that would be a waste of time
390. <+f|> and detract from productive work on improving the distro.
391. <+b|> Areas that benefit from being documented can be without any
392. <+c|> enforcement required. I don't think any great encouragement
393. <+d|> is needed -- if people want to do that, they already can, and
394. <+e|> usually already do. I'm happy to suggest ways of talking to
395. <+f|> people cooperatively if they want explanations of how things work,
396. <+b|> so that it doesn't turn into "but if I tell you anything, you're
397. <+c|> just going to use it against me if I get busy later" or similar.
398. <+d|> EOT: Anthony Towns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2138
399. <@don_armstrong> ================================================================================
400. <+e|> Begin Reponse: Ted Walther URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2134
401. <+f|> I wouldn't. I don't believe organizational charts are possible or practical in
402. <+b|> a large, ever-evolving volunteer project like Debian. I think we should make a
403. <+c|> best effort, but not sweat it. As long as the powerful positions like ftp
404. <+d|> master, new maintainer, people with root access and db access are documented and
405. <+e|> accountable, everyone else can get their stuff documented on an as-needed basis.
406. <+f|> EOT: Ted Walther URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2134
407. <@don_armstrong> ================================================================================
408. <+b|> Begin Reponse: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2139
409. <+c|> Enforcing documentation of roles and timetables is a little hard - we're volunteers!
410. <+d|> But certainly each of the teams should be encouraged to do this; I've often found in
411. <+e|> my own work that I don't truly understand something until I've tried to explain it
412. <+f|> to others.
413. <+b|> .
414. <+c|> Part 1 of the task is to talk to each of the people involved right now, and try to
415. <+d|> get an honest assessment of what the roles entail and how things are proceeding.
416. <+e|> .
417. <+f|> Part 2 is to actually try to get these things documented well enough that others
418. <+b|> in the project can understand them more readily. If help is needed on that
419. <+c|> documentation, I will try and find people to help. If no help is forthcoming, I
420. <+d|> will even pitch in myself.
421. <+e|> EOT: SteveMcIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2139
422. <@don_armstrong> ================================================================================
423. <+f|> Begin Reponse: Bill Allombert URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2140
424. <+b|> I don't think this is raisonnable, let alone possible. New role and project
425. <+c|> get created litteraly every days. Some process could be better documented,
426. <+d|> but enforcing such a policy would be similar to rejecting every packages that
427. <+e|> does not include its full specification.
428. <+f|> .
429. <+b|> However I think it is a task "observers" might play a positive role,
430. <+c|> observers being people loking at a task without actively working on it.
431. <+d|> EOT: Bill Allombert URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2140
432. <@don_armstrong> ================================================================================
433. <+e|> Begin Reponse: Ari Pollak URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2143
434. <+f|> I'm sure we could easily have a wiki page linking to the various project sites, but keeping track of every minute project change in a central place really doesn't sound like it would work. On a side note, major project timetable/membership changes should be added to Debian Weekly News.
435. <+b|> EOT: Ari Pollak URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2143
436. <@don_armstrong> ================================================================================
437. <+c|> Begin Reponse: Jeroen van Wolffelaar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2144
438. <+d|> I would simply work on the documention part myself, or with others if they
439. <+e|> volunteer. I already know a great deal about the various teams, and could
440. <+f|> pretty easily find out more that I need to know.
441. <+b|> .
442. <+c|> About staff changes, we're not a company. We are a project consisting of
443. <+d|> volunteers, volunteers who you don't just reassign at the snap of your
444. <+e|> fingers. I don't think there's any need to do that, either, but if there's
445. <+f|> percieved or real problems with a task, I'll look into it. I don't think
446. <+b|> it's ever a good idea to 'change' staff, but rather, to encourage teams to
447. <+c|> reinforce themselves with new members when the need arises, possibly
448. <+d|> starting out with trainees (such as release-assistants with limited
449. <+e|> privileges). By increasing transparancy, it is much easier also for new
450. <+f|> people to get involved and prove themselves.
451. <+b|> .
452. <+c|> People should generally only stop doing a task when they no longer are
453. <+d|> interested in it.
454. <+e|> EOT: Jeroen van Wolffelaar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2144
455. <@don_armstrong> ================================================================================
456. <@don_armstrong> that concludes the first part of the debate, we'll take a 5 minute break so I can run around the lab here
457. <@don_armstrong> While I'm running around, I'd like to reiterate how the second part of the debate will work; it'll basically be controlled chaos (as opposed to the uncontrolled chaos in the third part)
458. <@don_armstrong> I'll ask a question, the panelists will indicate to me in the candidate backchannel that they wish to respond;
459. <@don_armstrong> I will recognize them like the following:
460. <@don_armstrong> recognize don_armstrong
461. <@don_armstrong> they will then have 1.5 minutes to speak (or 5 messagse) whichever is lesser.
462. <@don_armstrong> I will then recognize the next candidate, who will have the same limit
463. <@don_armstrong> we will entertain rebuttals, again indicated through the backchannel.
464. <@don_armstrong> throughout this, the candidates will be voiced, so they'll be cooperating with me to keep the chaos to some appropriately chaotic level
465. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v BillAllombert] by don_armstrong
466. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v stargirl] by don_armstrong
467. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [-v stargirl] by don_armstrong
468. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v SteveMcIntyre] by don_armstrong
469. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v AriPollak] by don_armstrong
470. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v AnthonyTowns] by don_armstrong
471. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v TedWalther] by don_armstrong
472. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v JeroenVW] by don_armstrong
473. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v AndreasSchuldei] by don_armstrong
474. <@don_armstrong> ok; the candidates are ready, so we're going to start with the first question
475. <+TedWalther> vim. definitely.
476. <@don_armstrong> Q: There are some open issues in Debian, like multiarch and non-free kernel modules that seem to get bogged down due to the fact that there is no real consensus and thus neither proponents nor opponents manage to force the issue. Do you feel a DPL should take a more active role in identifying or even setting the project standpoint and making sure it is implemented within a reasonable timeframe?
477. <@don_armstrong> Furthermore, how would you help this process to occur
478. <@don_armstrong> recognize SteveMcIntyre
479. <+TedWalther> if the DPL has time, he should use his role to help the project arrive at a consensus. But at the end of the day, it is the kernel team that will make those hard decisions.
480. <@don_armstrong> TedWalther: please don't respond unless you've been recognized.
481. <+SteveMcIntyre> the DPL generally doesn't try to set technical policy, and I see that as a good thing
482. <+TedWalther> what is this, Roberts Rules of Order?
483. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [-v TedWalther] by don_armstrong
484. <@don_armstrong> recognize AnthonyTowns
485. <+SteveMcIntyre> by all means calling on the dpl to try and push technical discussions will help
486. <@don_armstrong> sorry, my bad.
487. <+AnthonyTowns> I don't think "forcing" the issue is a good thing, or having the DPL "set the project standpoint"; but having the DPL lead discussions, and try to make sure that the various options are clearly presented and refined is important,
488. <+AnthonyTowns> as is making sure that we come to /some/ decision, even if that's "we don't know enough yet, let's investigate ____ ____ and ____ further, and then decide"
489. <@don_armstrong> recognize BillAllombert
490. <+BillAllombert> Most of the time the issue is that there are several workable solutions. The DPL can play a role by gathering everybody opinion and lead them to a consensus solution. This is especially important if it involves non-DEbian entities.
491. <@don_armstrong> go ahead JeroenVW
492. <+JeroenVW> For an idea to get implemented, one or more people need to actually be willing to work on those isssues
493. <+JeroenVW> if nobody is interested to put time in it, it won't work
494. <+JeroenVW> however, the DPL can help working out what direction to take
495. <+JeroenVW> and getting the right people to talk to eachother
496. <+JeroenVW> or perhaps, suggest an interesing, previously unthought of, direction
497. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [+v TedWalther] by don_armstrong
498. <@don_armstrong> go ahead TedWalther
499. <+TedWalther> If the DPL has time, he should use his role to help the project arrive
500. <+TedWalther> at a consensus. But at the end of the day, it is the kernel team that
501. <+TedWalther> will make those hard decisions. The most I can do as DPL is put
502. <+TedWalther> forward a GR to modify Policy, which the kernel team will then have to
503. <+TedWalther> follow. Changing Policy is not trivial, even for a DPL.
504. <@don_armstrong> go ahead AndreasSchuldei
505. <+AndreasSchuldei> The DPL is in this case just a normal developer, with a higher soap-box. People are more likely to listen to him and will perhaps decide to following his attempts of moderation.
506. <+AndreasSchuldei> I would try to get people to talk about hard topics like these at DebConfs, for example, where there is time and plenty of bandwidth to do so and less chance of missunderstanding.
507. <+AndreasSchuldei> Actually that is what happend at previous DebConfs, when Martin talked about kernel drivers and firmware during dinner, for example, and asked for more discussion and patientce with each other.
508. <@don_armstrong> ok, next question
509. <@don_armstrong> What are your thoughts on the proposed code of conduct?
510. <@don_armstrong> hrm.. question is ill phrased apparently; lets replace it.
511. <+AndreasSchuldei> recognize
512. <@don_armstrong> or rather, lets continue, since people want to answer.
513. <@don_armstrong> recognize JeroenVW
514. <@don_armstrong> (sorry for being slightly discombobulated here)
515. <+JeroenVW> There is a debian community guidelines in the works by Enrico Zini. However, this is not intended as Code of Conduct, and it should not be used as a rule, but as a set of guidelines
516. <+JeroenVW> I think that's very valueable to have, and I will definitely work on getting it recognized
517. <@don_armstrong> recognize AndreasSchuldei
518. <+JeroenVW> However, I also believe we need to change our Code of Conduct somewhat, like what's now on lists.d.o. It should be reasonable moderate though, to not kill discussion and certainly not for it to be used as a stick to beat people with
519. <+AndreasSchuldei> The code of conduct is a minimalistic and easily applicable measure to determine weather or not my behaviour in the debian context is ok. It is important that as many as possible know about and agree uppon this measure.
520. <+AndreasSchuldei> I think it is quite important that we agree on this kind of guidelines. It should be possible to be able and stop and check if i should really go forward with this mail or just delete it before sending it. It should also be possible to point someone else in a friendly way to the code or conduct and suggest to others that they should check their own behaviour.
521. <+AndreasSchuldei> For it to gain more influence on the debian community it is necessary that it becomes widely known and more and more accepted. Perhaps we should pass a GR to ratify it, similar as our constituion. The purpose is not to have a stick to beat someone with but to have a commonly accepted guideline for orientation.
522. <+AndreasSchuldei> I am sure that we need this kind of measure and corrective to improve our working climate. If elected, one important task will be to inform people about it and raise awareness of it.
523. <@don_armstrong> recognize TedWalther
524. <+TedWalther> I am not aware of any proposed "Code of Conduct". But I believe all
525. <+TedWalther> developers should have to read through the short, pithy book of
526. <+TedWalther> etiquette I mentioned earlier on the debian-vote mailing list called
527. <+TedWalther> Martine's Handbook of Etiquette, by Arthur Martine. It was written in
528. <+TedWalther> 1868. All developers should take a comprehension quiz to make sure
529. <+TedWalther> they understand it.
530. <@don_armstrong> recognize AnthonyTowns
531. <+AnthonyTowns> AFAIK, we don't have "a" code of conduct; I think it'd be worth trying to work on one -- the one's we've had so far have been developed separately and reflect ideas from a bunch of different people.
532. <+AnthonyTowns> I don't think it should be viewed primarily as a way of "correcting people", but as a way of helping people get on with each other so we avoid people getting fed up and quitting or trying to kick people out.
533. <@don_armstrong> recognize SteveMcIntyre
534. <+SteveMcIntyre> A CoC is necessary, IMHO. The exact details need to be thrashed out,
535. <+SteveMcIntyre> and we need to agree on them and then abide by the code we agree.
536. <+SteveMcIntyre> That way I think we have more of a chance of avoiding/reducing the
537. <+SteveMcIntyre> flamewars that we're often seeing; let's make it clearer that we will
538. <+SteveMcIntyre> _not_ accept personal insults in technical debates, for example.
539. <@don_armstrong> recognize BillAllombert
540. <+BillAllombert> for the time being, I am opposed to an enforced code of conduct, however I am in favour of a set of guidelines and I gave some in my platform. I am unsure what is "the proposed code" the question refers to.
541. <@don_armstrong> next question:
542. <@don_armstrong> Do you believe Debian has hit a size barrier, with many or even most DD's not reading -devel any more? If so, do you think we're adequately tackling this problem?
543. <@don_armstrong> recognize SteveMcIntyre
544. <+SteveMcIntyre> no, not neecessarily a size barrier
545. <+SteveMcIntyre> there is more and more detailed debian work going on away from -devel, and that's only natural
546. <+SteveMcIntyre> dwn and the like make it easier for people to keep up, even if they're not readin all the detail on d-devel IME
547. <@don_armstrong> recognize AndreasSchuldei
548. <+AndreasSchuldei> Debian has grown a lot and it needs to find self-organizing structure in order to cope. This could very well be the "small teams" that i have been pushing for some times.
549. <+AndreasSchuldei> debian-devel could remain as a central market place but would slow down traffic wise, since much information is moved locally, instead of centrally.
550. <@don_armstrong> recognize TedWalther
551. <+TedWalther> I don't see any problem with Debian's size. I think we could easily
552. <+TedWalther> get bigger. We aren't all young, single male revolutionaries anymore.
553. <+TedWalther> Debian has become mainstream. Lots of us don't have time to follow
554. <+TedWalther> -devel, but we are active in our smaller sub-projects. That is a good
555. <+TedWalther> thing, not a bad thing.
556. <@don_armstrong> recognize AnthonyTowns
557. <+AnthonyTowns> No; I think -devel's stagnated because it's signal:noise ratio has dropped substantially, and I think the DD count hasn't risen as much as it might, because it's been displaced by sponsorship and maintainers.
558. <+AnthonyTowns> Other lists, and other teams are growing significantly, and there remain lots of new people getting interested in Debian, whether directly or through Ubuntu.
559. <@don_armstrong> recognize JeroenVW
560. <+JeroenVW> Debian is big, but we're actually doing quite fine. A lot of work can happen in specialized teams. However, we should take care to not lose the big picture, Debian needs to have a reasonable number of peopel working on 'general' issues
561. <+JeroenVW> because of the big community etc, we've come to a point where we need to enforce some very very basic minimum social behaviour on lists
562. <+JeroenVW> so that productive and constructive discussion can happen, regardless of the sheer number of people involved
563. <@don_armstrong> recognize BillAllombert
564. <+BillAllombert> I don't see any size barrier (the number of people contributing to Debian is grwing everyday) and I don' t believe not reading -devel is so much a problem. There are lots of Debian parts that are largely independant. The only issue I see is the lack of view of the "big picture" but I am unsure if debian-devel is supposed to adress that anyway.
565. <@don_armstrong> Q: What do you think of Debian's status on the desktop? Is Debian capable of making the kind of polished desktop that people expect
566. <@don_armstrong> from a Linux distribution, and if so what do we need to do to get there?
567. <@don_armstrong> Q: What do you think of Debian's status on the desktop? Is Debian capable of making the kind of polished desktop that people expect from a Linux distribution, and if so what do we need to do to get there?
568. <@don_armstrong> (now with less horrible formatting)
569. <@don_armstrong> recognize JeroenVW
570. <+JeroenVW> We can certainly be a good and polished Desktop distribution too. All it technically takes, would be different d-i options, or the current task selection. However, to really polish it out-of-the-box, we need to make some tradeoffs w.r.t. *defaults*
571. <+JeroenVW> I feel that currently, we're not very good at making such choices, while Ubuntu manages to do so. This does not mean that we should give in on freedom at all, it's all about the defaults
572. <@don_armstrong> recognize SteveMcIntyre
573. <+SteveMcIntyre> Debian is perfectly capable of making a good desktop distro - I use it
574. <+SteveMcIntyre> myself, and so do many others. But sometimes our users like the latest
575. <+SteveMcIntyre> newest eye candy that our longer release cycles struggle to keep up
576. <+SteveMcIntyre> with. Improving the speed of releases will probably fix most of that
577. <+SteveMcIntyre> Our normal policies mean that we can already do quite a good job of making package work well together
578. <@don_armstrong> recognize AnthonyTowns
579. <+AnthonyTowns> I'm use ion, so I'm not well qualified to comment on the "desktop" stuff in general; but I think we're well on the way to being able to use the d-i betas and testing security support to solve the "old software" problem,
580. <+AnthonyTowns> and new updates to Xorg, KDE and Gnome in unstable seem to be being handled fairly well these days; so I think we're well on the way to having good support.
581. <@don_armstrong> recognize TedWalther
582. <+TedWalther> Debian did many innovative things on the desktop. Unfortunately, that
583. <+TedWalther> was a long time ago. Now we are playing keep-up. If people come into
584. <+TedWalther> the project who want to fix that, great. Otherwise we'll just keep
585. <+TedWalther> focusing on our strength as a developement and server platform.
586. <+TedWalther>
587. <@don_armstrong> recognize BillAllombert
588. <+BillAllombert> We need to address the so-called "desktop" globally not packages by packages. Actually d-i had lead progress in that direction. but maybe there is a more general issue of providing predefined "profiles" on top of Debian. that would allow better desktop integration, but also better foo integration for a lot of foo. This is a challenge I consider.
589. <@don_armstrong> ok, that concludes the second part of the debate; we're going to enter into the free for all shortly, after a brief 5 minute break.
590. <+AndreasSchuldei> un?
591. <+AndreasSchuldei> what about me?
592. <@don_armstrong> recognize AndreasSchuldei
593. * AndreasSchuldei just answers
594. <+AndreasSchuldei> Debian could produce a just as polished and well integrated desktop as other distros. The fine-tuning between the packages could happen in extra configuration packages as outlined in Message-ID: <20060305203953.GZ13066@schuldei.org> on -vote.
595. <@don_armstrong> sorry, my mistake. ;-)
596. <+AndreasSchuldei> Up-to-date software will be much less of an issue once we manage to release more regularly and in shorter intervalls. Joey Hess has good ideas to solve this and I hope he and the d-i team will make them happen.
597. <+AndreasSchuldei> done
598. <@don_armstrong> ok, now we've really finished the second part, so we'll start with the free for all in 4 minutes.
599. <@don_armstrong> at the end of the free for all, candidates who wish will have 8 minutes to make a closing statement.
600. <@don_armstrong> the free for all will end no later than 00:52.
601. <@don_armstrong> lets get started.
602. <+TedWalther> what time is it now?
603. <@don_armstrong> 00:15
604. <+SteveMcIntyre> 00:14 UTC
605. <+TedWalther> hm....
606. <+TedWalther> we're behind schedule. I have to go soon.
607. <+AndreasSchuldei> TedWalther: do you need to leave?
608. <+TedWalther> this should have been finished at 4:30pm PST
609. <+AriPollak> TedWalther: how will this affect your candidacy for DPL?
610. <+SteveMcIntyre> erich: your question wasn't quite what you wanted to ask?
611. <@don_armstrong> The desktop issue has consistently been an issue which Debian has been brought to task about, both in software versioning, release speed, and desktop integration. What should we do next about that?
612. <+TedWalther> funny, all these DPL candidates, and we have nothing to say to each other :)
613. <+AriPollak> i have nothing bad to say about ted walther
614. <+AndreasSchuldei> TedWalther: will you prioritize your DPL work as high during the term?
615. <+TedWalther> AndreasSchuldei: Bzzzt! You used the word "prioritize". Go to the back of the class!
616. <+JeroenVW> We should, as I said above, take care to make decisions in defaults
617. <@don_armstrong> JeroenVW: what in particular should be changed about them?
618. <+JeroenVW> and not leave everything up to the user to configure, when there'd be good defaults.
619. <+TedWalther> the FSF helped Debian get off the ground by hiring Ian Murdock to work on Debian full time for a year or two
620. <+AriPollak> TedWalther: are priorities not a priority for you?
621. <+JeroenVW> But more importantly, it should be more fun to work on it, and we should esp. encourage more people to work on polishing tasks
622. <+TedWalther> I think we should hire an X/Desktop guy to work on our desktop stuff fulltime for a year
623. <+TedWalther> let us put our money where our hearts are.
624. <+JeroenVW> specifically, currently when you install desktop, you get both Gnome and KDE
625. <+AriPollak> TedWalther: one?
626. <+SteveMcIntyre> TedWalther: where should the money come from?
627. <+TedWalther> SteveMcIntyre: SPI isn't broke.
628. <+TedWalther> down with bureaucrat-speak; say things that people can understand!
629. <+SteveMcIntyre> TedWalther: who should we hire, and for how much?
630. <+TedWalther> SteveMcIntyre: no idea. we have to look into it.
631. <+JeroenVW> when you install X via some other way than d-i, you'll need to do a lot of stuff to get things running, and like install xdebconfigurator with all involved suggests
632. <+AriPollak> TedWalther: please elaborate on this fine suggestion
633. <+AnthonyTowns> it's not just defaults, it's also alternatives: some people want a rocking Gnome system, others want a slick KDE system, others want something preconfigured for schools -- derived/customised distros are important here too, and knoppix, ubuntu and skolelinux are already good answers for desktop debian
634. <+TedWalther> SteveMcIntyre: as for "how much", market rate is between $35-$100k per year.
635. <+AndreasSchuldei> we can improve the way we integrate packages, with additional configuration packages. that would give us an enourmous edge over rpm based distros and ensure that our packages can be used to build tightly integrated derived distros in the future
636. <+AriPollak> we could hire Zeke, he goes for less than minimum wage
637. <+SteveMcIntyre> AriPollak: yay!
638. <+JeroenVW> there should be some glue packages, pulling together related packages. You can apt-get install gnome, or apt-get install kde
639. <+AndreasSchuldei> AriPollak: but we work for free. zeke would cost money (c:
640. <@don_armstrong> BillAllombert, SteveMcIntyre: you both had talked about the NM in your platforms; what are your feelings about the issues in NM? Specifically issues with AM availability?
641. <+SteveMcIntyre> much of this work is already being done...
642. <+AriPollak> AndreasSchuldei: tell that to TedWalther
643. <+TedWalther> our key innovation before was nothing to do with KDE, Gnome, or any particular window manager.
644. <+JeroenVW> but also on a bit more micro level
645. <+TedWalther> our innovation was in things like "menu" which gave consistent root menus in all window managers
646. <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: we have a lot of NMs in the queue
647. <+TedWalther> we are integrators more than we are partisans
648. <+TedWalther> and our desktop innovations should continue to reflect that
649. <+SteveMcIntyre> there's been a lot of complaints about NM being a long, slow process
650. <+AndreasSchuldei> JeroenVW: i agree! outlined that in Message-ID: <20060305203953.GZ13066@schuldei.org> on -vote! (c:
651. <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: you had mentioned AM teams; how do you see that working?
652. <+TedWalther> SteveMcIntyre: so when are you going to register DUS with the tax office?
653. <+AriPollak> the first step is getting consistent background on all desktop environments
654. <+TedWalther> SteveMcIntyre: what are you doing to make sure that SPI and Debian is not liable for the taxes that DUS owes the government?
655. <+JeroenVW> SteveMcIntyre: how would NM teams solve the issue of not enough people actually being interested in doing AM work?
656. <+TedWalther> a consistent theme mechanism for all desktops and window managers would be nice.
657. <+AnthonyTowns> oh, well, if we're just asking each other questions...
658. <+TedWalther> background images. a default set of sound files.
659. <@don_armstrong> Q: The social contract's cornerstones are Free Software and our users. Yet, users often find Debian developers extremely difficult to deal with. How would you put the focus back on the users?
660. <+SteveMcIntyre> I'd like to see AMs and mentors work together on helping the NM process
661. <+TedWalther> in fact, default sound files have been our weakness for ages.
662. <+BillAllombert> I think we should have "megadeb", the pendent of "udeb" that obey to different rules and are able to apply global setting like 'typical one-user desktop box', '0-user server' etc.
663. <+AndreasSchuldei> AnthonyTowns: what question would you like to answer?
664. <+AnthonyTowns> AndreasSchuldei: how much money do you think should be in debian's overall budget -- for meetings, debconfs, and whatever else?
665. <+SteveMcIntyre> let's try and make NM work more interesting and easier on all sides
666. <+TedWalther> DUS = Debian UK Society, a business selling debian CDs and merchandise at trade shows
667. <+JeroenVW> I don't think Debian developers are difficult to deal with at all
668. <+TedWalther> all UK-resident DDs are automatically claimed to be members of the business
669. <+AriPollak> I am
670. <+AndreasSchuldei> AnthonyTowns: i am not quite sure how much we would need. if we would try to help all people who would liek to attend meetings it can be a LOT
671. <+TedWalther> and can be fined if they don't register early enough
672. <+JeroenVW> there are always some issues with some people, but in general, DD's are very approacheable, we have an open BTS, etc
673. <+SteveMcIntyre> plus, I'd hope we could encourage NMs to work more on packages that help, rather than concentrate on small packages of their own
674. <@don_armstrong> BillAllombert: How do you plan to implement your assistant projects?
675. <+AndreasSchuldei> AnthonyTowns: i made a quick calculation and arrived at ~200k just for work meetings.
676. <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: i don't think users find debian any harder to deal with than developers do; some get annoyed by the conflict or problems, others like it
677. <+JeroenVW> and, most importantly, users can directly talk to the developer that's most relevant for their own bug
678. <+AndreasSchuldei> AnthonyTowns: debconf could easily spend 250k this year
679. <+JeroenVW> it's more a perception issue than a real issue, I thin
680. <+SteveMcIntyre> TedWalther: what do you know about UK societies?
681. <+TedWalther> fsck I hate emacs sometimes.
682. <+AriPollak> we should write more programs to do bandwidth monitoring solely for NMs to package for debian
683. <+AndreasSchuldei> AnthonyTowns: unfortuanly we dont have that much.
684. <+AndreasSchuldei> Debian could do well with more resources to further its work
685. <+AndreasSchuldei> the work meetings in Extremadura in spain are a good example.
686. <+JeroenVW> AndreasSchuldei: how come this decreased? We had a succesful debconf last year, do you think sponsor interest declined, or is the issue (partly) also on the side of Debian here?
687. <+AnthonyTowns> AndreasSchuldei: and can you comment on the tradeoff between getting that through sponsors (and possibly selling out, or compromising on non-free stuff or similar) and raising money through donations and such? mostly we do the former, no -- what can we do about the latter?
688. <@don_armstrong> Q: Are there any bottleneck groups in Debian, and how do you believe the DPL should help?
689. <+AnthonyTowns> AriPollak: (what about irc clients?)
690. <@don_armstrong> (I can't remember if that was asked before, but just in case)
691. <+AndreasSchuldei> we have to limit ourself to european participants (since the sponsor has limits in his budget, too) and can only have 6meetings per year currently.
692. <+SteveMcIntyre> there are a few places in Debian where we _seem_ to have bottlenecks
693. <+JeroenVW> One should not think in terms of bottleneck groups -- but rather, in bottlneck tasks
694. <@don_armstrong> ok, let's assume that it was s/group/task/ to remove the human element.
695. <+AriPollak> AnthonyTowns: irc clients are good too. I don't think anyone's packaged VimIRC yet
696. <+BillAllombert> don_armstrong: This is a part that require creativity, but by integrating what DD do 'unofficially' in Debian, we can reuse their creativity.
697. <+TedWalther> I think the main bottleneck is that our European developers are so group oriented and have such an easier time meeting up with each other because of their superior public transit systems.
698. <+AnthonyTowns> AriPollak: the picture in your platform seems to be a derived work based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Snakesonaplane1js.jpg -- is it freely licensed? or did you not check as part of your policy to ignore licensing issues?
699. <+AndreasSchuldei> JeroenVW: the sponsor issue this year is complex. We are earlier then last year and they just come out of their budget planning and finalizing. then some sponsors had budget cuts.
700. <+TedWalther> this puts developers in other parts of the world at a severe disadvantage
701. <+AndreasSchuldei> JeroenVW: that said our budget this year is bigger then that last year, we will get more money
702. <+SteveMcIntyre> looking into those should be an important task for the DPL; let's see whether they really _are_ an issue, and if so how can we help?
703. <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: what areas would those be, and how should we resolve them?
704. <+AriPollak> AnthonyTowns: I know the person who originally made that image, he intended for it to be distributed & modified freely
705. <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: clearly, NM has been mentioned again, as has ftpmaster (picking 2 example, there are more)
706. <@don_armstrong> BillAllombert: the unofficial sub projects, right? What will your role as DPL be in them?
707. <+TedWalther> SteveMcIntyre: what is your involvement with Debian UK Society? where does the money go that is made from t-shirts and cdroms? and how do you feel about the fact that every DD in the UK is legally liable (fines, etc) for the actions of DUS?
708. <+AndreasSchuldei> AnthonyTowns: we had offers for better sponsorship support against better/more liberal treatment of non-free drivers
709. <+AriPollak> AnthonyTowns: how do you respond to the accusations that you're really a hobbit?
710. <+AndreasSchuldei> AnthonyTowns: we did not take that and i think that is a very good thing. debian is not for sale and we have our principles, we dont want to currupt our believes.
711. <+AnthonyTowns> AriPollak: i don't
712. <+SteveMcIntyre> in the areas where people are unhappy with how quickly things are going, let's see how the current teams feel
713. <+JeroenVW> yeah, what SteveMcIntyre says, for bottlenecks to be resolved, one needs to find out first, what exactly the problem is
714. <+SteveMcIntyre> how well are they coping, how can we help (more people / more delegation / finer-grained tasks etc)
715. <+AndreasSchuldei> AnthonyTowns: i think we need to be more creative in how we ask for money and enable people who would like to support us to do that eaiser and better
716. <+TedWalther> it is easy enough to set up a Debian repository that everyone who has unfree software should set up their own repository and tell people how to configure APT to point to it, instead of trying to shoe-horn it into Debian.
717. <+AriPollak> does SPI currently pay anyone to actually do work for debian?
718. <+AndreasSchuldei> there is a huge community that WANTS to support us
719. <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre, JeroenVW: what will enable us to discern what these problems are? [I guess, what's stoping us from finding them out now?]
720. <+AndreasSchuldei> AriPollak: no, no one
721. <+JeroenVW> of the teams that are percieved as blocking, they all know about the (percieved or real) issues, and are willing to work on it
722. <+TedWalther> when people want to give money to Debian, we should let them!
723. <+SteveMcIntyre> AnthonyTowns: do you feel that being DPL and an ftpmaster might be considered a potential conflict of interest?
724. <+AriPollak> is there anything stopping SPI from doing so, on a consulting basis?
725. <+AriPollak> assuming it had more than enough money
726. <+AndreasSchuldei> TedWalther: yay!
727. <+JeroenVW> if for somereason, resolving bottlenecks hits a snag, that needs (probably) mediation, because *technical* things are hardly ever really blocking us
728. <+TedWalther> bottle-necks, schmottle-necks. My bubbe would spang you with a wet towel.
729. <+AnthonyTowns> SteveMcIntyre: it might be considered one; i don't believe it is, any more or less than being a dpkg maintainer, sparc port maintainer, or X maintainer would be
730. <+AndreasSchuldei> AriPollak: mako wrote a very good article about what can happen if you introduce money in volunteer communities
731. <+JeroenVW> however, technical solutions can often contribute greatly to resolving an issue, by reducing repetitive work (automating it)
732. <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: there has been a lot of heated discussion on those fronts so far; taking a calm, reasonable effort to find out what's going on will help
733. <@don_armstrong> JeroenVW, SteveMcIntyre: some of the reasons behind the bottlenecks are already known. How long do we need to wait before we act?
734. <+JeroenVW> or splitting responabilities
735. <+AnthonyTowns> SteveMcIntyre: in so far as i might make a bad decision as part of ftpmaster, that needs to be corrected, the way to do so is via the technical committee
736. <+JeroenVW> c.f. Joey Hess' blog post about the reign of unix permissions
737. <@don_armstrong> JeroenVW, SteveMcIntyre: (lets assume a hypthetical task just for the sake of discussion)
738. <+AndreasSchuldei> don_armstrong: how do you feel as a moderator now? do you feel stressed? (c:
739. <@don_armstrong> AndreasSchuldei: heh
740. <+AriPollak> anyone know what's keeping python 2.4 from becoming the default python?
741. <+AnthonyTowns> SteveMcIntyre: (whose rules indicate that if you're being overruled, you don't get to vote on the issue)
742. <+TedWalther> As DPL, I will make sure that DUS stops misrepresenting itself as being part of the Debian project. Debian does NOT make money from the sale of CD's, which DUS does. This will also eliminate the legal liability that our current DD's are subject to in the UK.
743. <+TedWalther> if DUS wants to be a sponsor or donor of Debian, that is another scenario, and they are welcome to it.
744. <+AndreasSchuldei> TedWalther: have you spoken to the involed people, actually?
745. <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: I don't think that all the issues are as clear-cut as some people believe; making unfounded assumptions about the problems will not help us solve them
746. <+JeroenVW> don_armstrong: it's impossible to talk in generalities about this, it's really a per-case issue. Teams really want to work properly themselves too, a DPL needs to assist in enabling the teams to get that done more efficiently where needed
747. <+AnthonyTowns> TedWalther: linux australia holds some money on debian's behalf from the sale of merchandise (t-shirts with a debian logo in this case), as DPL would you insist that money is not debian's?
748. <+AndreasSchuldei> TedWalther: i took the opportunity to talk to Phill Hands on the phone about this. did you?
749. <+JeroenVW> also, there's often wide misconception about the real bottlenecks
750. <+BillAllombert> don_armstrong: I will work toward integrating them properly, and eventually foster new one.
751. <+TedWalther> AnthonyTowns: other organizations may sell merchandise on our behalf. We cannot accept legal liability for what other people do with our products
752. <+AnthonyTowns> AriPollak: the python team are trying to change the policy to make upgrades work better in future, and the 2.4 transition is blocking on that
753. <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: only once a really clear view will be able to work on the core problems
754. <+TedWalther> AnthonyTowns: so, when linux australia donates money to Debian, then that is Debians money.
755. <+TedWalther> AnthonyTowns: that is the reason we have SPI to handle our money.
756. <+TedWalther> AnthonyTowns: DUS can move to an arrangement like that if it wants.
757. <+AriPollak> AnthonyTowns: the python team is, or other people are?
758. <+TedWalther> AnthonyTowns: does linux australia represent itself as "Debian" at trade shows?
759. <+AndreasSchuldei> TedWalther: there are a couple of other foundation or organisations holding debian money.
760. <@don_armstrong> JeroenVW, AndreasSchuldei: What will be different about the DPL team this year?
761. <+JeroenVW> AnthonyTowns: erm, I don't think that's true, one can go for python 2.4 without waiting on the tool transition, and I think we should do so reasonably soon
762. <+SteveMcIntyre> AriPollak: how will you cope with splitting your time between Debian and Zeke?
763. <+AriPollak> SteveMcIntyre: I don't have to split my time, Zeke maintains my packages while I pet him
764. <+JeroenVW> AnthonyTowns: there's a number of issues to be hit because of python language changes, we shouldn't postpone too long on those
765. <+AndreasSchuldei> don_armstrong: we made changes to have it more open
766. <+JeroenVW> to make sure we don't loose momentum
767. <@don_armstrong> JeroenVW, SteveMcIntyre: what should we do about issues of human recalcitrance in teams?
768. <+AndreasSchuldei> don_armstrong: delegation will happen very soon during the term
769. <+JeroenVW> don_armstrong: I will lead my team with a strong agenda, and good idea's how to achieve my goals
770. <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: encourage people to be honest when they can't keep up with what they've volunteered to do
771. <+AnthonyTowns> JeroenVW: we can only switch to py2.4 by changing lots of packages (python-foo depends: python >= 2.4, python2.4-foo), that would also have to be changed with the better upgrade stuff; the RMs are more up to date on this than i am ttbomk
772. <+TedWalther> What measures do the other candidates plan to take when expelling a project member for "anti-social" behavior?
773. <@don_armstrong> JeroenVW, SteveMcIntyre: that is, where people are either blocking progress or being overtly hostline over it?
774. <+AndreasSchuldei> don_armstrong: the team will be more flexible, too. we will have changes when people get tired and take new people in
775. <+TedWalther> Who gets to be the judge?
776. <+AriPollak> can i speculate more about python 2.4?
777. <+BillAllombert> I don't plan to expell anyone.
778. <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: if necessary, push them to accept help until the teams are able to work effectively again
779. <+JeroenVW> being the initiator of the current setup, I feel I can guide the team to being most effective, having good idea's what's needed. I've also learned from the past year, what things will *not* work
780. <+TedWalther> BillAllombert: SteveMcIntyre made it clear that he does plan to expell people for their social behavior, and other DPL candidates danced around the issue, leaving it open for them to do so later.
781. <+AriPollak> TedWalther: that question didn't make any sense
782. <+AndreasSchuldei> TedWalther: in the current expulsion procedure the DAM is involved in weighing the arguements.
783. <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: any thoughts on what to do if they don't wish to accept?
784. <+TedWalther> BillAllombert: said DPL candidates have also had a past history of confusing deeply and sincerely held religious beliefs with "trolling" and being "anti-social"
785. <@don_armstrong> (just a reminder, we're at the 15 minutes left mark)
786. <+AndreasSchuldei> TedWalther: but most of the judging will be done by lots of developers
787. <+JeroenVW> AnthonyTowns: yeah, this isn't something the DPL should decide about anyway, more something for the release team to be involved in
788. <+TedWalther> BillAllombert: to quote Jahldar, "You think I'm insane now because I believe in 1,000,000 gods"?
789. <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: in extreme cases where a job is not being done and it hurts, we would have to put more people in regardless
790. <+AnthonyTowns> SteveMcIntyre: what teams don't you think are functional atm? ftpmaster? DAM/n-m? security? others?
791. <+SteveMcIntyre> AnthonyTowns: at the moment, I don't think any teams are necessarily non-functional
792. <+AndreasSchuldei> TedWalther: do you think that taking up religious topics during such a debate helps?
793. <+SteveMcIntyre> but one of the first jobs of the new DPL will be to talk to all the teams and find out the true situation
794. <+TedWalther> AndreasSchuldei: do you think that trying to kick people out of the project because you don't like their religious views is something to sweep under the carpet?
795. <+AndreasSchuldei> SteveMcIntyre: i think teams can work much better.
796. <+AndreasSchuldei> SteveMcIntyre: we should aim for the "much better" instead of "not non-functional"
797. <@don_armstrong> Q: Do you believe that the DPL should make any sort of technical decisions? If not, why are several of you discussing them?
798. <+SteveMcIntyre> AndreasSchuldei: absolutely, yes
799. <+AnthonyTowns> SteveMcIntyre: are the teams in the best position to tell if they're non-functional? if people on -devel or elsewhere consider them non-functional, but the team thinks things are operating fine... what happens?
800. <+TedWalther> as an international project with representation of all the major cultures and religions, it is important not to go down the road of religious discrimination, which several of this years DPL candidates have openly done on IRC.
801. <+AndreasSchuldei> SteveMcIntyre: i think the release team is a good example of a core team that works well
802. <+SteveMcIntyre> but let's see exactly where we are before we start promising to "fix" things
803. <+AndreasSchuldei> SteveMcIntyre: but even more interesting in my eyes is the security team which started to reform itself.
804. <+AriPollak> don_armstrong: would you rather we discuss religious issues?
805. <+TedWalther> when DPL candidates are behaving like this, can you really vote for them in good conscience?
806. <+JeroenVW> Technical decisions shouldn't be made by the DPL, period. It's hard to follow on the huge amounts of text here and keep on topic
807. <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: the DPL should absolutely make technical decisions for *himself*
808. <+SteveMcIntyre> for the project as a whole, I doubt that a DPL will be able to make "decisions" stick
809. <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: the DPL's role is to lead discussion within debian, and technical discussions are what makes debian great; that's different from actually making the final decision though, which generally isn't the DPL's place
810. <+TedWalther> I may be unpopular in many ways, but I live and let live. Something the clean-cut posterboys I am debating with don't seem to agree with as a policy.
811. <+SteveMcIntyre> he can help others come to those decisions, and prod where necessary...
812. <+AndreasSchuldei> SteveMcIntyre: it started out as one of the most opaque teams in the project and now it is changeing its tools, its structure and by that even manages to involve many more people
813. <+JeroenVW> AnthonyTowns words my sentiment quite well
814. <+AnthonyTowns> i don't think i've ever been called a clean-cut posterboy before, how awesome
815. <@don_armstrong> Another key issue that many of you brought up in your platforms is communication; what would you do as DPL to improve communcation?
816. <+AndreasSchuldei> JeroenVW: i think the dpl could encourage certain technical development
817. <+SteveMcIntyre> AnthonyTowns: *grin*
818. <+AriPollak> i propose SPI buys a Debian-based smartphone for all Debian developers
819. <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: delegate to steve, jeroen, bill, enrico and others ideally
820. <+TedWalther> there has been a lot of talk about expulsions in Debian recently. Even in this debate the other conversants are staying silent. Because they know I am telling the truth. And they hope it will go away and they won't have to deal with the effects of their bigotry.
821. <+AriPollak> then we can all communicate via IRC from wherever we are
822. <+SteveMcIntyre> AriPollak: do you know of any such device yet available? :-)
823. <+AnthonyTowns> oh, ++pasc and some of jeroen's team members who also expressed a firm interest in that area
824. <+JeroenVW> AnthonyTowns: you want to form a DPL team :)?
825. <@don_armstrong> to make it slightly more apropos: What, 12 months from now, do you want to see changed in regards communcation, and how will that happen?
826. <+AriPollak> SteveMcIntyre: not yet, but i'm going to be introducing another Debian port called Snakes on a cellphonew
827. <+SteveMcIntyre> JeroenVW / AndreasSchuldei : after working together on the DPL team last year, you're standing separately this year, with (mostly) different teams?
828. <+TedWalther> Now, on to the real topic.
829. <+BillAllombert> don_armstrong: Add peope dedicated to communication helping teams.
830. <+TedWalther> we need to have a poll on what is Debians official brand of beer.
831. <+SteveMcIntyre> How well did the DPl team work last year, and why so different this time?
832. <+AnthonyTowns> JeroenVW: no, i want a communications team that can focus on easing out the conflicts that've blown up into expulsion attempts recently; leadership's more than just making sure people can talk, it's making sure things get done too
833. <@don_armstrong> (we've got 8 minutes left)
834. <+AndreasSchuldei> don_armstrong: i would want a calmer and more informative debian-devel@l.d.o
835. <+AriPollak> if we all had IRC on our phones, we could all discuss the pressing emergency issues as they come up, like whether or not to play tetrinet
836. <+JeroenVW> TedWalther: by the way, can you please if you're going to accuse people, fellow DPL candidates in this case, from discriminating based on religion, provide proof for such accusations? I think that's a very strong accusation to make, and I think it's very badfor the atmosphere in Debian
837. <@don_armstrong> BillAllombert: how will these people be identified/teams formed?
838. <+JeroenVW> AnthonyTowns: ah, I see, thank you for the clarification
839. <+AndreasSchuldei> i would hope that people know about the code of conduct and manage to abide by it.
840. <+TedWalther> JeroenVW: thats all been done on the mailing lists. read through -vote, -devel, and -private
841. <@don_armstrong> AndreasSchuldei: how do you envision that happening?
842. <+AnthonyTowns> JeroenVW: (there's a difference between a "dpl team" like you and andreas have, and a group of people randomly working together to support the dpl, which is all i'm getting at)
843. <+TedWalther> JeroenVW: also, I've started keeping IRC logs, which include your own prejudiced attitudes.
844. <+JeroenVW> I want, in 1 year, to see a -devel list excelling in having lots of nice technical discussions
845. <+AndreasSchuldei> don_armstrong: make the code of conduct know? it is a simple and tedious task: talk about it a lot.
846. <+BillAllombert> I will ask for volunteers and starting from there.
847. <+AndreasSchuldei> at conferences, at meetings, on irc...
848. <+JeroenVW> discussions of which it's obvious we're here together with lots of skilled people, having fun making Debian an even better distribution that it already is
849. <+SteveMcIntyre> there's several ways to improve comms in the project
850. <+AndreasSchuldei> and i would try to live by it. (c:
851. <@don_armstrong> Q: It's been said that the DPL can act as a facilitator and leader of discussion. We haven't seen much of this over the past few years, at least outright. How do you plan to do things differently?
852. <+AndreasSchuldei> and encourage as many as possibel to do the same.
853. <+SteveMcIntyre> firstly, sort out some of the unneeded flamewars that have blighted us more recently
854. <+AnthonyTowns> AndreasSchuldei: (with enough people around, there's always someone who's interested in any task, no matter how tedious you think it might be)
855. <+JeroenVW> TedWalther: can you prove one quote where I'm discriminating based on religion? Permission to quote granted hereby
856. <+AndreasSchuldei> AnthonyTowns: i hope so.
857. <+SteveMcIntyre> secondly, keep up-to-date with the various teams doing their jobs and see what's being done
858. <@don_armstrong> (5 minutes)
859. <+AndreasSchuldei> AnthonyTowns: i consider that task important enough to dedicate some of my time to it, too. for example when giving a talk at a formal dinner at debconf.
860. <+BillAllombert> don_armstrong: I think it actually happened a lot but privately. My plan is to CC my initial emails to debian-email so there is a trace something was done.
861. <+JeroenVW> in one year, I hope we won't actually really need the, slightly stronger by then, code of conduct to enforce a basic level of conduct
862. <+TedWalther> JeroenVW: not in the timeframe of this debate. we can do it later though
863. <+SteveMcIntyre> if they need help in communicating with the rest of us, find voluteers to help or even dive in personally to get things going
864. <+JeroenVW> but that an interesting place to work like Debian, attracts more interesting and interested people, and people who feel the need to divide, leave
865. <+AnthonyTowns> don_armstrong: i expect i'd lead discussions in a similar way to the release and arch qualification discussions; i'm much happier to do that in an area that has some sort of conduct guidelines, personally
866. <@don_armstrong> Are there any interesting discussions that we should be having but aren't having currently?
867. <+TedWalther> have to leave now.
868. <+AndreasSchuldei> TedWalther: bye!
869. <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: undoubtedly! :-)
870. <+AriPollak> don_armstrong: we should talk about expelling people more
871. <+AndreasSchuldei> AriPollak: why?
872. <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: which ones?
873. <+JeroenVW> AnthonyTowns: you want guidelines that would involve also banning people who just lose their patience for a bit?
874. <+AriPollak> AndreasSchuldei: because it's so productive
875. <@don_armstrong> (3 minutes)
876. <+JeroenVW> AnthonyTowns: even though, they generally are very productive?
877. <+SteveMcIntyre> I'd be amazed if there aren't people with ideas and suggestions who are keeping quiet at the moment
878. <+SteveMcIntyre> for a start
879. <+JeroenVW> and would stop out of their own?
880. <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: how should they be involved?
881. <+AnthonyTowns> JeroenVW: i'd rather people not lose their patience in the first place; or if they feel the need to yell, not do it at me
882. <+SteveMcIntyre> make the lists more welcoming and they will come...
883. <+AnthonyTowns> JeroenVW: if that means temporarily devoicing someone as happened earlier in the debate, i have no problem with that
884. <+BillAllombert> AnthonyTowns: Would you apply this standard to yourself ?
885. <@don_armstrong> (two minutes)
886. <+AndreasSchuldei> make the whole of debian more welcome, even!
887. <+SteveMcIntyre> (yay, bad movie mis-quote!)
888. <+AnthonyTowns> BillAllombert: i'd hope someone else would apply that standard to me
889. <@don_armstrong> SteveMcIntyre: how will that happen?
890. <+JeroenVW> AnthonyTowns: would you want to apply similar rules to the lists?
891. <+AriPollak> we should temporarily set mode +m on lists when they get out of hand
892. <+AriPollak> and then only the bots can speak
893. <+AnthonyTowns> JeroenVW: i'd really rather someone else decide that -- i've had my play with codes of conduct this year with #d-tech, i think it's other people's turn to have a go
894. <+SteveMcIntyre> let's try and kill the flamewars; let's take technical discussions on merit rather than falling onto ad hominem attacks more
895. <@don_armstrong> How do you intend to keep a positive, enthusiastic attitude (i.e., productive) during your tenure as DPL, and how do you intend to project
896. <@don_armstrong> that attitude inwards to the Debian Developers and outwards to the outer community?
897. <+SteveMcIntyre> I think we might be surprised at how much difference that can make
898. <+JeroenVW> SteveMcIntyre++
899. <@don_armstrong> (30 seconds)
900. <+AriPollak> flaming people usually brings the morale up in the project
901. <+AndreasSchuldei> (15 seconds)
902. <+JeroenVW> don_armstrong: keep having fun myself, first and forall
903. <+AndreasSchuldei> over !!!!
904. <+SteveMcIntyre> don_armstrong: have fun, all of us - that's key!
905. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [-vvvv SteveMcIntyre AriPollak JeroenVW AnthonyTowns] by don_armstrong
906. -!- mode/#debian-dpl-debate [-vvv AndreasSchuldei TedWalther BillAllombert] by don_armstrong
907. <@don_armstrong> in the next 8 minutes, I'd like to ask the candidates who feel like writing closing statements to write them
908. <@don_armstrong> and at this moment in time, I'd like to thank all of the candidates for working around eachother's schedules in order to attend this debate
909. <@don_armstrong> thanks for standing for the position of Debian Project Leader.
910. <@don_armstrong> I'd also like to thank Marin Eric Racine, David Nusinow, MJ Ray, and Thaddeus H. Black for helping to facilitate the questions that I was able to ask behind the scenes
911. <@don_armstrong> (You don't want to know what is on the list of emergency questions that I had)
912. <@don_armstrong> Finally, thanks to all of the participants in -discuss for asking provocative questions, and expecially those who sent questions to us.
913. <@don_armstrong> At this time, I'm going to start causing the bots to paste the closing statements; we will be making logs of all of the channels, and slightly saner formatted questions and responses from the first part availabe as well
914. <+f|> Begin Reponse: AndreasSchuldei URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2145
915. <+b|> The Office of DPL is a quite demanding and important role in
916. <+c|> Debian. It is also very much under-used, underestimated and largely
917. <+d|> reduced to be a figure head.
918. <+e|> .
919. <+f|> I have spend the last term on the DPL-Team and already then
920. <+b|> worked hard to achive more transparency, communication and openness
921. <+c|> within the project. New workmeetings take place this year and the
922. <+d|> project got more and better resources already. Next term I would
923. <+e|> continue those effords to make Debian a pleasent working environment,
924. <+f|> colaborating in a purpose driven way.
925. <+b|> EOT: AndreasSchuldei URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2145
926. <@don_armstrong> =======================================================================
927. <+c|> Begin Reponse: Bill Allombert URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2146
928. <+d|> I would like to conclude by saying that we could go with more friendship in the
929. <+e|> project, but that hard rules do not foster friendship, but rather create fight
930. <+f|> for power.
931. <+b|> .
932. <+c|> I thank you in advance for casting your vote.
933. <+d|> EOT: Bill Allombert URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2146
934. <@don_armstrong> =======================================================================
935. <+e|> Begin Reponse: Jeroen van Wolffelaar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2147
936. <+f|> Thanks to the Debate organisers for organising this, I've been on the front
937. <+b|> row to see how much hard work was done here. Thanks for all participants
938. <+c|> and the public for tuning in so late (in Europe, that is). And thanks to my
939. <+d|> fellow candidates, for this interesting debate, and for actually doing what
940. <+e|> few DDs do: offer your services for the project at large.
941. <+f|> .
942. <+b|> I'm looking forward to the upcoming year of Debian work, regardless of the
943. <+c|> outcome. And Debian Developers, please remember to vote!
944. <+d|> EOT: Jeroen van Wolffelaar URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2147
945. <@don_armstrong> =======================================================================
946. <+e|> Begin Reponse: Steve McIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2148
947. <+f|> Thanks to everyone for taking part tonight; I hope people found the debate interesting and productive.
948. <+b|> We have some good candidates standing this year, and while I obviously would like to win I'll be happy
949. <+c|> so long as we get a good competent DPL.
950. <+d|> .
951. <+e|> To all DDs: please use your democratic right to vote! It's down to you now...
952. <+f|> .
953. <+b|> P.S. Vote for me; I'll be really good!
954. <+c|> EOT: Steve McIntyre URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2148
955. <@don_armstrong> =======================================================================
956. <@don_armstrong> candidates are invited to continue discussing in -discuss if they desire, or on -vote.
957. <@don_armstrong> Don't forget to vote when the voting period opens this weekend
958. <+d|> Begin Reponse: Anthony Towns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2149
959. <+e|> No particular summary; whether you're voting for me or not, please
960. <+f|> keep involved in Debian, doing great things, and telling people about
961. <+b|> the great stuff that happens in Debian.
962. <+c|> EOT: Anthony Towns URL: http://channels.debian.net/paste/2149
963. <@don_armstrong> =======================================================================

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