I again raise the question: Do you think all of your squadmates are going to survive by the end? What happens to the co-op then?

And I doubt every mission will involve all four of them every single time...

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

I again raise the question: Do you think all of your squadmates are going to survive by the end? What happens to the co-op then?

Your question is flawed. Nobody is asking to play as existing characters. Nor does having to control character relevant to the plot. People played as Warwolf 3 & Warwolf 4 in ACAH coop just fine.

You kinda need to design the campaign around it, that's my point. And narratively, what we've seen thus far makes that practically impossible, at least by my reckoning.

Mind you, this is just conjecture, but I feel like there's a high chance of someone from Queen Flight biting the dust, if that's one of the suggestions you might make to circumvent around the fact that one player always has to be Rex of Joker Flight, not to mention the potential for Joker Flight to be the only one to sortie out on a mission and leaving Queen Flight behind for one reason or another.

Of course, we won't know about what's truly going on until over a month from now, but I guess personally, I'm fine with the way things are right now because I would rather they not compromise on the narrative and the POV of being Rex just to allow players to play through the campaign co-op. And even if you do sort out all the problems narratively, I have to wonder how much effort it would take to convert the entire campaign into a co-op one; how do players make progress for themselves? How are they graded? How much easier or harder do you make the campaign to compensate for player count? If you're going to put that amount of effort in, I can see why they chose to curate a specific multiplayer experience instead.

On the note of the one co-op campaign that we seemingly had in ACAH... What happens when a player is downed?

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

You kinda need to design the campaign around it, that's my point.

Ace Combat 6 coop was a DLC feature & the story wasn't designed around it at all. Just the amount of enemies per mission. Nobody complained about that.

Assault Horizon's story also wasn't designed around coop. Same treatment as AC6's coop. Nobody begged Warwolf 3 & 4 to turn out into Mobius 1 clones or whatever.

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

I guess personally, I'm fine with the way things are right now because I would rather they not compromise on the narrative and the POV of being Rex just to allow players to play through the campaign co-op.

Yeah, that's you and your deal. ACOnline already shattered your narrative stance with Emergency Sorties anyway. Mass-produced Arsenal Birds & Chandeliers! Likely mass-produced Stonehenges & Alicorns later too. Unless, they're all just simulations? Nothing makes sense justifying that lmao.

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

On the note of the one co-op campaign that we seemingly had in ACAH... What happens when a player is downed?

"seemingly"? We do have limited coop missions in ACAH. Even with its delisting, there's Google forgodsakes
https://youtu.be/Qlo-uFjY8Pk?si=R6QtM9083nZKHA5o

if a player is downed, they respawn after a few seconds. That's it. It was just for fun.

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

Ace Combat 6 coop was a DLC feature & the story wasn't designed around it at all. Just the amount of enemies per mission. Nobody complained about that.

Assault Horizon's story also wasn't designed around coop. Same treatment as AC6's coop. Nobody begged Warwolf 3 & 4 to turn out into Mobius 1 clones or whatever.

I'm not exactly convinced just based on description alone, admittedly. Just because it was a feature doesn't mean the experience is enhanced at all just for being there, and I guess my expectation is that a mode like this isn't just shoehorned in and has a reason to exist beyond just playing the campaign together with friends. (In other words, I'd rather it'd be something natural. For me personally, Ace Combat campaigns aren't natural feeling for a multiplayer co-op experience.) And though it seems like co-op was a thing in Ace Combat already... I wonder how popular of a feature it actually was?

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

ACOnline already shattered your narrative stance with Emergency Sorties anyway. Mass-produced Arsenal Birds & Chandeliers! Likely mass-produced Stonehenges & Alicorns later too. Unless, they're all just simulations? Nothing makes sense justifying that lmao.

I treat Ace Combat Online as its own, separate experience from the main campaign - by all means, it's being treated that way already by the game's structure, and nothing suggests to me right now that it'll have major implications on the Ace Combat timeline. That being said, that's shifting away from the subject at hand, which was about the main campaign... And I stand by not wanting to sacrifice the narrative being told for the sake of co-op play.

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

"seemingly"? We do have limited coop missions in ACAH. Even with its delisting, there's Google forgodsakes

You act as if I'm supposed to be a know-it-all. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint; ACE7 is my only hands-on experience with the franchise thus far. Still, no need to belittle someone for not doing the research - I was unaware co-op was a thing at all for the franchise at large aside from Ace Combat Infinity! And with it only being in two other entries, I repeat what I asked above about how popular it was to play these missions... ACE6, maybe I could see - they do have large maps, after all. ACAH... Maybe not. But that's probably not the fault of the co-op missions...

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

if a player is downed, they respawn after a few seconds. That's it. It was just for fun.

Gotcha, gotcha. Well, I think there's your problem - it's in a curated mode with a curated set of missions, with rules in place to make the co-op experience more fun for all involved. Applying that to the main campaign would not be very natural, IMO.

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

You act as if I'm supposed to be a know-it-all. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint; ACE7 is my only hands-on experience with the franchise thus far. Still, no need to belittle someone for not doing the research

If you realize that, then you should realize what you're doing here is wrong.

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

You kinda need to design the campaign around it, that's my point. And narratively, what we've seen thus far makes that practically impossible, at least by my reckoning

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

Gotcha, gotcha. Well, I think there's your problem - it's in a curated mode with a curated set of missions, with rules in place to make the co-op experience more fun for all involved. Applying that to the main campaign would not be very natural, IMO.

You're shutting down someone asking for campaign coop; something Aces has done in bits for previous games; without proper knowledge nor authority to do so. Just because you're dead set on a weird idea of "campaign co-op must have a narrative design, and Ace Combat narrative design doesn't match with campaign co-op because I said so".

Nobody asked for a campaign co-op that overrides the main story. Nobody asked a coop where everyone are important characters. People just want to play a set of missions cooperatively, with the usual NPC chatter & no competitive aspect. OP already listed AC6 as example.

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

You act as if I'm supposed to be a know-it-all. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint; ACE7 is my only hands-on experience with the franchise thus far. Still, no need to belittle someone for not doing the research

If you realize that, then you should realize what you're doing here is wrong.

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

You kinda need to design the campaign around it, that's my point. And narratively, what we've seen thus far makes that practically impossible, at least by my reckoning

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

Gotcha, gotcha. Well, I think there's your problem - it's in a curated mode with a curated set of missions, with rules in place to make the co-op experience more fun for all involved. Applying that to the main campaign would not be very natural, IMO.

You're shutting down someone asking for campaign coop; something Aces has done in bits for previous games; without proper knowledge nor authority to do so. Just because you're dead set on a weird idea of "campaign co-op must have a narrative design, and Ace Combat narrative design doesn't match with campaign co-op because I said so".

Nobody asked for a campaign co-op that overrides the main story. Nobody asked a coop where everyone are important characters. People just want to play a set of missions cooperatively, with the usual NPC chatter & no competitive aspect. OP already listed AC6 as example.

I would be fine with a dynamic campaign with player made characters all working together in coop. Falcon dynamic campaign but in AC? I would love that.

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

You're shutting down someone asking for campaign coop; something Aces has done in bits for previous games; without proper knowledge nor authority to do so. Just because you're dead set on a weird idea of "campaign co-op must have a narrative design, and Ace Combat narrative design doesn't match with campaign co-op because I said so".

Nobody asked for a campaign co-op that overrides the main story. Nobody asked a coop where everyone are important characters. People just want to play a set of missions cooperatively, with the usual NPC chatter & no competitive aspect. OP already listed AC6 as example.

I don't think I need your permission to be critical of an idea that I don't think would work as presented. The way I saw OP's wording, I thought they meant to apply it to the entire campaign of ACE8 itself, not make it its own section.

I'm only critical of the idea because if they did, for whatever reason, choose to do it, I'd want some amount of effort being put into it - to me, a small amount of co-op campaign is not worth diverting the resources that are being put into Ace Combat Online as well as Ace Combat 8's main campaign, and I'd rather they get those right first and foremost since they both seem to be of relatively equal import this time around.

Perhaps one other reason I'm critical of the idea, if I'm being honest, is because the last time they diverted resources into a side mode for Ace Combat, it was for ACE7's VR mode.

Playable on only one console.

I guess VR is a *lot* more niche compared to integration of co-op, but still, I'm playing the pessimistic card here because I would rather that they don't waste their efforts without good reason.

If I may ask once again... How popular was the co-op mode? Did people like it? Is it worth investing resources into? I have no idea of the scope here because ACE6 was on a console counter to most of the Ace Combat fans of the time period, I thought... and Assault Horizon is Assault Horizon. I think we all knew how that game was received.

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

I don't think I need your permission to be critical of an idea that I don't think would work as presented.

My permission? No, you outed yourself as a larper:

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

You act as if I'm supposed to be a know-it-all. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint; ACE7 is my only hands-on experience with the franchise thus far. Still, no need to belittle someone for not doing the research

Everyone else can decide for themselves how worthy these points are:

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

to me, a small amount of co-op campaign is not worth diverting the resources

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

You kinda need to design the campaign around it, that's my point. And narratively, what we've seen thus far makes that practically impossible, at least by my reckoning

Have a look at what OP is suggesting, before shutting their question down because of your own interpretation:
https://acecombat.wiki.gg/wiki/Co-op_Battle
https://youtu.be/hZao29ijJKE?si=KaHkZVmExpPNJaa_

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

Perhaps one other reason I'm critical of the idea, if I'm being honest, is because the last time they diverted resources into a side mode for Ace Combat, it was for ACE7's VR mode.

f I may ask once again... How popular was the co-op mode? Did people like it? Is it worth investing resources into? I have no idea of the scope here

I can see the concern about AC7's VR mode, but that's a faulty comparison. Look up how AC6 did coop, please. I already said:

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

Ace Combat 6 coop was a DLC feature & the story wasn't designed around it at all. Just the amount of enemies per mission. Nobody complained about that.

AC6 co-op was made post-release & it did not cut into AC6's own development whatsoever.

For AC8, things have gotten even more easier to make, as ACOnline already has Scramble & Emergency Sortie built in; which is over half of what OP was asking for. All they had to do is to design a campaign that utilizes that mechanic.

Ace Combat has done this as a whole before, with Joint Assault. That whole game was designed for co-op campaign; inspired by cooperative games like God Eater, Monster Hunter, and the PSP Metal Gears. But Access Games was the one that did it, and it was also plagued by the same "real world" disease that Assault Horizon got. I'm sure everyone can extrapolate whose the culprit was. (It's Bandai, looking at the sales of CoD classic MW2 & MW3)

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

Have a look at what OP is suggesting, before shutting their question down because of your own interpretation:
https://acecombat.wiki.gg/wiki/Co-op_Battle

Maybe I'm wrong but that doesn't seem like what OP wants. I think OP wants coop campaign which is just like regular campaign except humans are playing as Joker 2/3/4. 6's coop wasn't that. It had its own unique missions which were based on the campaign missions but weren't the same.

Originally posted by King Fossil:

Maybe I'm wrong but that doesn't seem like what OP wants. I think OP wants coop campaign which is just like regular campaign except humans are playing as Joker 2/3/4. 6's coop wasn't that. It had its own unique missions which were based on the campaign missions but weren't the same.

OP said they liked AC6, so I'm using AC6's co-op to gauge the feature's feasability.

Originally posted by Kyuirah:

Already looks like these online co-op missions will have little to no NPC allies. (I liked Ace Combat 6)

And again, ACOnline already has Scramble & Emergency Sortie. Those are full-blown PvE with nothing but scores as "competition". No Victory Screens, no MVP match rankings, and best of all, enough enemies for everyone.

So, most of the core mechanic is there. Aces just have to utilize that for a campaign. If AC6 is the goal, then that's very possible, even as post-release content. If something like Joint Assault is the goal, then it'd take a bit more effort, but none programming-wise & minimal modelling nor animation wise. As most of the content are already there or set to go on ACOnline.

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

My permission? No, you outed yourself as a larper.

Gatekeeping can only be good for this community. /s

Again, sorry to disappoint you. If you still feel like listening, go ahead, but I wouldn't blame you if you ignored everything below this sentence.

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

AC6 co-op was made post-release & it did not cut into AC6's own development whatsoever.

But did people play it? I keep coming back to this question because genuinely I have no idea - you're defending the idea quite hard on behalf of the OP, who hasn't even issued a single reply to their own thread yet. Since you seem to know a lot more than I do, I was kinda hoping in the midst of all this, you'd give me some insight into how these additions were perceived at the time.

The timing of those post-release additions also matters in this conversation, IMO; while the games industry has changed a lot over the past 20 years, how long it took for additional content to be put in can be telling of when they potentially started to work on them. If it was closer to the original release of the title, it might actually have cut into the development of the main game slightly as they put on the finishing touches to get it ready for launch, and at the same time they would begin active development of the DLC so that they could release the content as scheduled; if it was released later than one would expect, it could suggest that it was originally unplanned, and that's a whole process you gotta go through to secure approval to continue working on your game! It's business, after all.

I think the reception of co-op for both Ace Combat 6 and Assault Horizon are the most important things from my perspective when it comes to speculating on whether or not the publisher, Bandai Namco Entertainment, thinks it's worth giving resources to, regardless if it was their idea or if it was a proposal from Bandai Namco Aces, the developers, to be reviewed by the higher-ups at BNEI. Resources are also more than just money, it's time and manpower, too, that goes into the manual labour. With how turbulent game development can seem these days, I wouldn't be surprised if the skeleton crew left behind would be incapable of making a decent quality job even if it was on the cards... Pray for the best case scenario with Ace Combat Online.

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

For AC8, things have gotten even more easier to make, as ACOnline already has Scramble & Emergency Sortie built in; which is over half of what OP was asking for. All they had to do is to design a campaign that utilizes that mechanic.

Feels like this is conveniently ignoring the ambitious nature of ACE8 itself, what with its new cloud system and all that... And of the nature of the games industry in general with game development taking more and more resources with each waking moment... I don't doubt they could absolutely design stuff that would be satisfactory, but I think that should be reserved for, I dunno, Ace Combat Online?

Y'know, one thing I never thought to ask about all this is what side of the game this would be running on. Ace Combat Online has its own progression separate from Ace Combat 8's campaign, after all... Feels like a conundrum without clarification on what the OP actually wants.

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

Ace Combat has done this as a whole before, with Joint Assault. That whole game was designed for co-op campaign; inspired by cooperative games like God Eater, Monster Hunter, and the PSP Metal Gears. But Access Games was the one that did it, and it was also plagued by the same "real world" disease that Assault Horizon got. I'm sure everyone can extrapolate whose the culprit was. (It's Bandai, looking at the sales of CoD classic MW2 & MW3)

I've... not heard a lot of good things about this entry, straight up. I'm not sure if it was *entirely* because of the "real is brown" thing of late 2000s/early 2010s gaming... I might have to ask some of the communities I'm in sometime about the general consensus and what they think were good ideas, if there were any.

And again, a whole lot of "they've done this before" doesn't do a lot to sell me on an aspect of the game I've not heard a lot of opinions about, or really illustrates to me whether or not it would be fun and worth doing. By all means, I'd love to be proven wrong if a co-op campaign does show itself at some point, but the great ambition of ACE8 as a whole makes me think they should focus on polishing all of that first and foremost.

Aurum, you kept asking when there are clear videos of people playing. And no one, not even one, in those videos were complaining about "oh how I want Bamco to delete the coop, it's so bad".

At this point, I think you don't want to have your assumption be proven wrong. Even with clear links & videos to the facts. Your aversion to the idea of campaign co-op is beginning to look hostile.

This is not gatekeeping. I have given clear points, but all you've given back are "I've heard" or "feels like". There can be no discussion when you refuse to look up Ace Combat's own history with coop, the core topic of this thread.

I doubt this was the kind of conversation the OP wanted when they posted this. If nothing else, I'd say my generally negative response to the topic of a co-op campaign both here and in other threads originates from how increasingly volatile the games industry seems these days, and how ambitious ACE8 itself is - even with the increased budget, I don't trust the process enough for someone to not screw it up, be it publisher or developer side.

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

Aurum, you kept asking when there are clear videos of people playing. And no one, not even one, in those videos were complaining about "oh how I want Bamco to delete the coop, it's so bad".

Look, without a way to play it for myself, it's hard to tell without hearing from people who have. Sure, the co-op exists, but what I wanted to know was the bigger picture; videos alone can't show me the general consensus both back then and now regarding the co-op experience and whether or not it feels like something might have been compromised as a result. Really, I should probably gather some opinions from the communities I'm a part of, rather than try to ask in this thread for 'em. I'd probably get a faster response that way.

If nothing else, can you tell me how you yourself felt about it? Were they fun experiences? Did you actually get to play them often with others and have a blast? If so, good! And if not, why? Say it from your perspective and I'll at least understand why you in particular are championing for co-op.

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

At this point, I think you don't want to have your assumption be proven wrong. Even with clear links & videos to the facts. Your aversion to the idea of campaign co-op is beginning to look hostile.

If it seems that way to you, then I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm a little too inquisitive.

Originally posted by TheRibbonRed:

This is not gatekeeping. I have given clear points, but all you've given back are "I've heard" or "feels like". There can be no discussion when you refuse to look up Ace Combat's own history with coop, the core topic of this thread.

I would kindly ask you to not to misappropriate the use of the term "LARP" when addressing someone else, at least. Ad hominem only makes me less willing to have a constructive conversation here.

We're probably hitting a brick wall in the conversation, so we'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't think we need to waste much more time going in a circle - I'm pessimistic about a new co-op campaign being good, and you're optimistic. We clearly have our established stake in the topic, so let's just leave it there. (At least, unless the OP actually replies to any of this...)

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

I doubt this was the kind of conversation the OP wanted when they posted this.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

videos alone can't show me the general consensus both back then and now regarding the co-op experience and whether or not it feels like something might have been compromised as a result.

I dunno how else to adress this. There are no simple Steam Review like chart solely for the coop aspect of these games. Hence why I linked videos (with comments active) & urged you to Google. If you want to ask the communities about it, go ahead. They ought to provide more nuance to it than I do.

But no. As far as we know & from the developer interviews... except for Joint Assault & Infinity (which both core identity are co-op), co-op never became an issue for any entry.

AC7's VR mode so far is the only separate mode that was detrimental, it was called out in developer interviews. Though it was also a combination of AC7's own development hell.

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

If nothing else, can you tell me how you yourself felt about it? Were they fun experiences? Did you actually get to play them often with others and have a blast?

To simplify, it was good but basic. That's why they're lesser known than Infinity. AC6 & ACAH only repurposed already existing missions for co-op, which was why neither gave as long-lasting impression as Infinity did.

A little off-topic here, but with the current rise of friendslops & coop roguelikes, I don't think Infinity's core mechanic would gel as well today. ACOnline would still have the core AC fanbase to carry on. And Competitive PvE co-op is also not well-explored, so there's that "new" appeal to it too. But I am sure that the core gameplay will shatter some people's perceived notion of ACInfinity.

Why? Because there have been & will be strict point rooms to prevent meta builds from speedrunning matches, to encourage "co-op" more than the "competitive" aspect. It was also why "Delay the final attack" call was used so much, it became popular in the community. Rushing missions have become such a default behavior, it led to some unaware that missions like ACI's Aigaion hunts discourage it by spawning mobs to earn for S rank later.

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

I would kindly ask you to not to misappropriate the use of the term "LARP". Ad hominem only makes me less willing to have a constructive conversation here.

I apologize. But I also ask the same to you, when people say some fact & you reply to those facts with "seemingly". If you think someone's statement isn't correct, it's best to do your own due diligence first, instead of immediately replying passive-aggresively.

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

If it seems that way to you, then I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm a little too inquisitive.

I apologize as well. I am sorry. I was being too combative.

Originally posted by Aurum Moon:

I don't think we need to waste much more time going in a circle - I'm pessimistic about a new co-op campaign being good, and you're optimistic. We clearly have our established stake in the topic, so let's just leave it there.

Well, I don't think I have anything new to say, that anyone can't look up on the internet anyways.

If anyone wants to contribute to the topic about the execution of campaign coop, feel free. Or if I said anything [objectively] wrong here, call out.