GILLIAN ANDERSON: There is part of me that has always slightly fantasized about being in a home.
RACHEL MARTIN, HOST:
(Laughter).
ANDERSON: But what that's about is somebody saying, now it's time to read.
The biggest question is, how am I complicit in not getting what I say that I want?
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: I'm Rachel Martin, and this is WILD CARD, the show where cards control the conversation. My guest this week is Gillian Anderson. Gillian Anderson got famous for playing women who exist at a certain remove. They're cerebral, highly capable and outwardly dispassionate. Of course, the most famous is Agent Dana Scully of "The X-Files." A close second is Margaret Thatcher in "The Crown."
But a role-playing Dr. Jean Milburn in "Sex Education" convinced Anderson that in her real life she wanted to encourage women to lean into the most passionate and vulnerable versions of themselves. Her first book about women's desire, "Want," was a best seller. Her follow-up collection is called "More."
And I am so glad to welcome Gillian Anderson to WILD CARD. Hi.
ANDERSON: Hi. Thank you for having me.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: Round one. Memories. First three cards, Gillian. You pick - one, two or three.
ANDERSON: One.
MARTIN: One. What have you learned to appreciate about your hometown over time?
ANDERSON: So I was born in Chicago, but we only lived there for six months before we moved to Puerto Rico for 15 months, and then we moved to London, England, until I was 11, and then we moved to Michigan and - until I went to high school and then I went back to Chicago for uni. I mean, I probably have more appreciation for the U.K. I mean, that's why I'm living there now and have been living there again for 24 years, post "X-Files."
MARTIN: Sure.
ANDERSON: Even though it is such a vibrant, colorful, complicated metropolitan city, what I appreciate most about it are the green spaces. There are so many squares.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: And there are so many trees and there are so many places...
MARTIN: In London. Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...For, you know, the population to, you know, plonk themselves in the middle of a workday or whatever. And it's - it feeds the soul in a way that I don't think you would normally expect from - and then so I come to California and the amount of concrete and the amount of...
MARTIN: You know, people don't think about that in California, the amount of concrete, but LA is a lot of concrete.
ANDERSON: Yeah. There's a lot of concrete.
MARTIN: Why did you feel the pull to move to London after "The X-Files"?
ANDERSON: It was always a place that I wanted to go back to.
MARTIN: It was. That was - that had been planned?
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: Actually, when I was 16, we had some neighbors down the road and granted, my parents - we were in a basement apartment, very small basement apartment and we had some friends who lived down the road and the husband was a commercial - and they were just in an apartment, but it was on a higher floor and they had decorated it beautifully, and it had brick - exposed brick walls and stripped wood floors and they had - it was just - they had really good taste.
And she was a stewardess, I think, for Swiss Airlines, and he was a American commercials director. And I said to them, age 16, when you guys are thinking about selling this apartment, call me.
MARTIN: What?
ANDERSON: And they did.
MARTIN: Shut up.
ANDERSON: No, they did. When I was 25 years old, they got in touch with me through my parents and they said, we're selling.
MARTIN: Did you buy it?
ANDERSON: And I had - no, because, I mean, this is crazy that I could afford a house at 25...
MARTIN: Right.
ANDERSON: ...But I'd started - I was a year into "The X-Files."
MARTIN: God, you were young. Yeah.
ANDERSON: And I'd put a down payment on a place in Vancouver 'cause we were going to be there for a long time. I was making, you know, money...
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...And more money than my parents even, you know, had ever seen in their lifetime at 25. And I had just - I had just put a down payment on the house, so I - but I might have actually had said yes had I not done that. And so already then...
MARTIN: Yeah. You were planning. Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...I knew from that moment that it was - yeah.
MARTIN: Next three. One, two, or three?
ANDERSON: Three.
MARTIN: Three. What activity gave you a sense of freedom as a kid?
ANDERSON: Gosh, I don't know. I was quite solitary.
MARTIN: Were you? You were an only child for a while.
ANDERSON: Yeah. Freedom, though. When we moved to the States - shortly after we moved to the States, as a summer camp, which didn't really exist in the same way - summer camps didn't really exist in the U.K. as they do...
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...In the States.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: And my parents sent me on a biking camp. It was just road biking and it was cross-country.
MARTIN: Wow.
ANDERSON: And...
MARTIN: How old were you...
ANDERSON: ...I think...
MARTIN: ...You think?
ANDERSON: ...I must have been somewhere, you know, like, 12-ish...
MARTIN: OK.
ANDERSON: ...I think.
MARTIN: OK.
ANDERSON: But it was the first real exercise (laughter) I'd ever gotten other than, like, PE and, you know, throwing balls to each other across an indoor court...
MARTIN: At recess. Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...Or something, you know...
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: Recess. Yeah. And we were, you know, obviously, outside, sunshine, wore shorts for the first time, I think, really, and got fit. And I remember coming back home and my mom being so impressed that something had shifted inside of me. Now it didn't stick, but...
MARTIN: (Laughter).
ANDERSON: ...At all, but...
MARTIN: Come on.
ANDERSON: ...It was - no, it really didn't. It really didn't. No. It...
MARTIN: You're not, like, an exercise fitness person?
ANDERSON: No, not at all. I think I then went into a period where, you know, I remember the layers of sweaters and combat jackets and darkness and blah, blah, you know, everything that teenagers go through...
MARTIN: Right.
ANDERSON: ...Which is such a shame because it was, like, you know, there was such an opportunity (laughter) at that moment.
MARTIN: Right. Right. No, that's...
ANDERSON: This is the path.
MARTIN: No, I know.
ANDERSON: This is the path to take.
MARTIN: But then we tried to cover up our bodies.
ANDERSON: Yes.
MARTIN: I did it, too, like...
ANDERSON: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
MARTIN: ...Big oversized flannels and really, like...
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...Not cute outfits. Yeah.
ANDERSON: Yes. Yeah. Hiding.
MARTIN: But there was something - besides the exercise, there was - it sounds like there was a sense of freedom on that bike.
ANDERSON: Yeah. And the freedom - and I don't think I'd ever had so much fresh air go into my lungs in my entire life.
MARTIN: (Laughter).
ANDERSON: And...
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...And I think it really, you know - but I'm very curious as to then what happened (laughter). But it just all went south from there.
MARTIN: When...
ANDERSON: But anyway, that's another story.
MARTIN: How old were you when you stopped being an only child? When did your siblings come into the picture?
ANDERSON: Oh, 13 and 16.
MARTIN: When you were 13 and 16? Yeah.
ANDERSON: Yeah. When I was 13 and 16, they had a boy and then a girl.
MARTIN: So how did that - probably rock your world?
ANDERSON: I didn't...
MARTIN: I mean, that's kind of crazy (laughter).
ANDERSON: I didn't handle it very well. I did not handle it very well. And that may be, in part, why I regressed a bit. I, you know, I found it really hard, actually, the attention going elsewhere...
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...And I definitely regressed. I mean, I think there was a period where I had my own bottle (laughter). You know what I mean? - when I was like 13.
MARTIN: No. Like a bourbon? Or...
ANDERSON: No, like a baby bottle. You know, it was...
MARTIN: Oh (laughter).
ANDERSON: ...Like something - I was like - sorry.
MARTIN: I was, like, you were self-medicating that way?
ANDERSON: (Laughter) No, that started at 14, but at 13...
MARTIN: (Laughter).
ANDERSON: ...I was - yeah, no, it was very - I really regressed and think - I think that I definitely started kind of, you know, more turning inside. But also, you know, really contributed, I think, to a self-sufficiency.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: You know, first, the being an only child and then processing whatever emotions were coming up as the result of feeling whatever it is, even though I probably wasn't left out, abandoned, you know.
MARTIN: No. Yeah.
ANDERSON: Yeah, yeah.
MARTIN: There's a lot of feeling left out.
ANDERSON: All that stuff that comes up for - yeah.
MARTIN: Sure. Yeah. OK. Last one in this round. One, two or three?
ANDERSON: Two.
MARTIN: Two. As a kid, what did you think adulthood would look like?
ANDERSON: I remember standing in London, standing at a crosswalk, holding my parents' hands, and I don't know how old I was - 6 maybe, 5, 6. And watching them talk to each other and feeling like they were talking another language, you know?
MARTIN: Yeah. Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...Feeling like they were - like, I was left out of this thing, that they shared this thing together that I just wasn't a part of. And so I think I aspired to be able to understand their language. Obviously, wanted to, you know, wish that I could be included. I remember almost having, like, a vision of myself as a 30-year-old (laughter).
MARTIN: Wow.
ANDERSON: And I really wanted to be that 30-year-old when I was older in my teens. I really wanted to be that. And to me, that was a grown-up...
MARTIN: What...
ANDERSON: ...A 30-year-old.
MARTIN: ...What was her life like, your imaginary 30-year-old version of you?
ANDERSON: She had a kid, which is ironic...
MARTIN: Fascinating.
ANDERSON: ...'Cause I had a kid at age 30. Yeah. And...
MARTIN: In your projection of what you were going to be at 30.
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: It was a mother.
ANDERSON: I was an only - it was a mother, a single mother (laughter). Just madness.
MARTIN: (Laughter).
ANDERSON: And I don't think - I don't think I then went about making that happen...
MARTIN: Right.
ANDERSON: ...You know what I mean? I don't think that was my modus operandi. But I did have - I remember talking to my therapist at the time. I started therapy when I was 14, and I remember talking to my therapist at 18 about this grown-up that I aspired to be. And I think part of it was that I felt like a mess at 18.
MARTIN: What was the root of it?
ANDERSON: I think I - I was just - I was angry and confused and lonely and rebellious. You know, I fought everything. And so - yeah. Yeah.
MARTIN: There's another question in the deck that didn't come up.
ANDERSON: (Laughter) Yeah.
MARTIN: But I'm going to ask it anyway, just...
ANDERSON: Go on. Go on.
MARTIN: ...To figure out what the - what was - what were the things that you were rejecting as a teenager? Was it just the obvious stuff of just differentiating yourself from your parents? Was it something cultural? Was it just for the hell of it? Was it more intentional?
ANDERSON: Yeah. There were some things transpired in my childhood that I haven't actually talked about publicly. And obviously, this isn't the place for it, but there was good reason to be...
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...To be angry and confused. And so - and I hadn't, you know, those things take many years of work and processing and finding yourself in the midst of it. And so I wasn't, you know, I wasn't there yet. I was still not taking care of myself and choosing unhealthy ways of coping. And so it was those choices, rather than healthy choices, that were exacerbating...
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...The feeling...
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...Of - yeah. So it was still - I was still caught up in all of that.
MARTIN: And so the projection of a 30-year-old, I imagine, that person, she's a single mom, but she must be...
ANDERSON: I was a grown-up.
MARTIN: ...Happy, content...
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...In something.
ANDERSON: Yes.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: I was - that was. Yes, I felt like I had that in my mind, and I also had - there was a photograph that my dad - my dad, he was a filmmaker, and he used to take a lot of photographs. And there's this picture of me age 2 that's blown up. Picture of me as a - black-and-white picture that's close-up on my face and my eyes. And there's so much purity and innocence. And I've still got that picture. And for a long time, it kind of represented my potential that I didn't feel like I was reaching. And so that photograph and the image in my mind of this capable, sane, stable, adult woman, mother.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: Those two kind of sat there, and then there was this period that was a bit of a mess as I was trying to get back to what I saw in the in the black-and-white photograph. You know, I was caught - there were so many years where I felt like I was letting her down, letting down the 2-year-old that I'd lost my way. And - but I would actually even say that I didn't necessarily get back on track until - I feel like me, as a probably 50-something, is probably as adult and content as I've ever felt.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: And that's not for lack of trying, you know?
MARTIN: Yeah, yeah.
ANDERSON: But something does shift, and a lot of the shift is, you know, letting go of, you know, self-punishment, of self-flagellation, letting go of self-judgment, being able to not hold too tightly onto things and just let stuff move through and past and not taking things or oneself too seriously.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: And all that stuff generally, I have found anyway, comes with time and age...
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...And experience.
MARTIN: But it's funny to just think about the younger version of you who imagined the 30-year-old. She probably thought the 30-year-old was old. What she should have done was even imagine the 50-year-old version of you. But that was like...
ANDERSON: One hundred percent. Ancient.
MARTIN: Totally. Like, what?
ANDERSON: (Laughter).
MARTIN: A 50-year-old? I can't project that far into the future.
ANDERSON: Isn't that, like, dead?
MARTIN: Right (laughter).
ANDERSON: Fifty surely is near dead.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: Let's pull out of the game for a minute and talk explicitly about your new book, which is a new-old book because it is an extension of your original book "Want," which came out a couple of years ago. This book is called "More." And you correct my characterization, but both books are about female desire, ultimately.
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: And the sexual fantasies that women - that we rarely speak out loud, even to ourselves sometimes, like to admit them to ourselves, let alone write a letter...
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...To a famous actress admitting these fantasies, which is what happened. But this is an idea that started to percolate for you when you were doing this role of Dr. Jean Milburn in "Sex Education," right? Can you explain that evolution?
ANDERSON: It was an idea, a proposition that had come from my literary agent. And she had received, during the period of time that I was in "Sex Education," playing a sex therapist. She had received many requests from publishers asking, did I want to write a book about, you know, as a sex therapist or about sex therapy or something along the lines of talking to women about their sexual experiences.
And she had turned down a lot of those - didn't feel like they would be right had come to me - or maybe she did at various points, and I wasn't interested. But then she proposed - you know, she reminded me about "My Secret Garden," which I had dipped into, actually, while I was doing prep work for "Sex Education." And...
MARTIN: So we should say "Secret Garden" was this cult - I mean, classic book from the '70s...
ANDERSON: Yes.
MARTIN: ...Written by Nancy Friday.
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: Also about women's desire, which was a huge deal to admit in the '70s.
ANDERSON: It was. It was a huge deal and was very successful, but it was also, you know, she was very good writer, Nancy Friday, and she basically extended it to her circle of women friends and asked them to write in anonymously to her with their sexual fantasies. And yes, the book became a bestseller, and it was, you know, it was released at the time of Roe v. Wade, and so it was really profoundly eye-opening for women and for men reading it. And so my agent said, what if we were to do something similar, but cast the net wider and, you know, to see whether anything's changed.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: You know, what the modern-day version of those fantasies might be. And so we, you know, took it out to publishers, and Bloomsbury ended up winning the bid and started a wonderful relationship with them. And we opened the portal up globally to women around the world to write in to me. And so women from all over the world wrote. We didn't know that women were going to not just put down their deepest - I was going to say darkest, but it's not darkest because so many of them are so joyful and fun...
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...And funny.
MARTIN: Just personal. Intimate.
ANDERSON: But they're...
MARTIN: Deeply.
ANDERSON: Yes.
MARTIN: Deeply intimate.
ANDERSON: Deeply intimate details and thoughts, and press send.
MARTIN: How did you curate this? Like, what were the criteria? I'm sure - because it's also - I mean, I'm sure you're overwhelmed, and you're so...
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...So happy to be - to have had the project work, right?
ANDERSON: Yes.
MARTIN: You sent out this invitation, and so many women responded.
ANDERSON: Yeah. Yeah.
MARTIN: But then, what did you use as your - what were the editorial choices about which stories would make the cut and which didn't?
ANDERSON: So I had a couple of fantastic women helping me, an independent editor on the outside, Rosemary (ph), and a couple of editors inside Bloomsbury. And what we first did is, when we first had the pages, we kept the pages in a vault in Bloomsbury (laughter) 'cause we were so nervous in the beginning, and we printed out three huge stacks. So we sat - was it three of us? Three or four of us sitting around a room one day.
MARTIN: With real paper copies of these things?
ANDERSON: Yes. Yes. It was important.
MARTIN: Yeah. That's amazing.
ANDERSON: Yeah. And we started at the top, and then we suddenly realized - but the reason why we started at the top was 'cause we wanted to have the same experience together, like, to comment out loud about what it was that we were reading and experiencing.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: And then we realized, oh, my God, it's going to take - we're like, what are we - OK, let's divide it into six pieces. Divide and conquer.
MARTIN: Also I'm going to say something borderline here. But it's also, like, some hot material. Like, could you absorb all that in one sitting, or did you just have to, like, I need to go to the bathroom. I need to take a little walk by myself. Then we'll meet back up?
ANDERSON: There were definitely moments where we were, like, making noises from, like, different sides of the room, where we were like, oh, doggy. Wow.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: Yes. And then there are periods of real what I have come to refer to as snow blindness, you know, where it's just, like, I don't know if I can read anymore about these words and situations and all the different words that one can.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: But also I then started to think, what the f*** am I doing?
(LAUGHTER)
ANDERSON: Like, how did I get here? Like, how did I get into this position where I'm reading? You know? And then...
MARTIN: It's kind of amazing.
ANDERSON: But then you read something that is so - almost is so moving.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: And - or is so beautifully written or is so touching and tender and/or so joyful or is filled with so much shame and self-criticism and yearning. And you read that 73-year-old writing that they're a virgin. And, you know...
MARTIN: It just kills me.
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: The letters from the - from older women, whether it was they've been physically intimate with someone, or they're just writing about what would seem to many people to be the most banal yearnings of just, like, being touched by their husband. I mean, some of them are, like, extreme and very, very sexy and voyeurism and, like, you know, some violence. But it's these really precious ones...
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...That aren't those things that really reveals - I mean, they all are revealing, but those in particular stood out to me as these...
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...Special confessions.
ANDERSON: Really special.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: And so brave and...
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...Raw and so much trust, you know, and sending it off and trusting that I would hold it and that the readers would hold it in the, you know, spirit of what the intention of the book was, which is about, you know, commonalities.
MARTIN: You had so many, obviously, that you created the second volume.
ANDERSON: Well, we did a second volume for a couple of reasons. One, because, well, we actually did a second callout.
MARTIN: You did?
ANDERSON: Yeah. We did a second callout, but part of the deal at the beginning was anything we didn't use for the first book we would agree to destroy, which we did. And so we did a second callout because of the success of the first book and because it had such an impact on women, on conversation, on dialogue with each other and with partners and with their kids. And it really started really deep conversations, not just about desire, sexual desire.
But one of the things that I have found that is one of the most vital points that has become obvious in this whole journey with these books is the question of, you know, when you ask yourself in the moment, you know, am I - have I ever told anybody what's in my head? Like, have I actually confessed, even to myself? And if I haven't talked to my partner of 15 years, 25 years about this, why?
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: Why, haven't I? And if I were to, what are the consequences of that? And if I don't, is it 'cause it's just my own fear, or do I think they would judge me, or do I think it would make them upset, or do I - or if I actually, in real time, actually want something different from my partner, and I haven't told them in 20 years. Like, what is that saying? And well, hang on a second. Why haven't I?
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: How - the biggest question is, how am I complicit in not getting what I say that I want?
MARTIN: That's right. Can I tell you something?
ANDERSON: And...
MARTIN: After reading your book, I had some good conversations with my partner. And we will just leave it at that.
ANDERSON: (Laughter).
MARTIN: But it is so important. You tell yourself these things.
ANDERSON: It's so important.
MARTIN: It's so important. And women don't know how to use their own voice and to have agency in your life that way. To take...
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...Agency of your life that way.
ANDERSON: Yeah. And I tell you something - the minute you start doing it there...
MARTIN: That's right.
ANDERSON: ...In your most intimate space...
MARTIN: That's right.
ANDERSON: It impacts every other area of your life. Or it gives you the courage to then see where...
MARTIN: Where else you can apply that.
ANDERSON: ...In other areas of your life you are not using your voice.
MARTIN: That's right.
ANDERSON: And it begs the question. You can't - it's very hard to not - for one not to lead from the other.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: And so that's the most miraculous thing about these books is that it starts, even if it was just for you.
MARTIN: Oh.
ANDERSON: You know?
MARTIN: Thank you (laughter).
ANDERSON: Right? So important.
MARTIN: Definitely wasn't. I mean, so many women have read these books and found them to be revelatory for their own lives. So congratulations on the thing that you have built.
ANDERSON: Thank you.
MARTIN: Congratulations. Yeah.
ANDERSON: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: Round two, Gillian. Round two.
ANDERSON: OK. I'm going to start with No. 2.
MARTIN: No. 2.
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: How are you with authority?
ANDERSON: Oh, not so good
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: I sort of thought you were going to say.
ANDERSON: I am the only authority. No. How am I with authority?
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: It depends on the kind of authority. I'm pretty good at obeying rules.
(LAUGHTER)
ANDERSON: I don't know. When was the last time anyone tried to get me to obey a rule? I think I'd terrify everybody. So I learned something in the last two years, which is that my grandfather, on my mom's side, apparently actually ended up in a psych ward because of his inability to deal with the authority of his boss in that - he was a chemist and something - there was something about the authority, and his relationship to authority. And I don't know what it was. But I've been - since I heard that I've been so fascinated by that. And wondered...
MARTIN: That's so interesting.
ANDERSON: ...Whether it's actually...
MARTIN: Genetic.
ANDERSON: ...In my genes (laughter).
MARTIN: Right. Well, we'll ask your showrunners (laughter).
ANDERSON: OK. Oh, no, I'm pretty good at that stuff.
MARTIN: You're good.
ANDERSON: I'm pretty - I'm professional.
MARTIN: You can take direction. Yeah.
ANDERSON: Yeah. I can. I can do that.
MARTIN: OK. Three new cards. One, two or three?
ANDERSON: One.
MARTIN: One. Does routine make you feel comfortable or trapped?
ANDERSON: My teen? My teen inside me?
MARTIN: Nope. Although I like that question too.
ANDERSON: (Laughter).
MARTIN: I love that you just knew - that you were like, my teen. My inner teen. Routine. Does routine make you feel comfortable or trapped? And then we'll talk about your inner teen.
ANDERSON: I like routine. I'm used to, you know, I did almost a decade on a TV show.
MARTIN: Yes.
ANDERSON: And it's all about routine and showing up when you're meant to show up...
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...And, you know, hitting your mark and having the lines ready. And so I'm very - it's almost been brainwashed into me. What is - what had taken a long time to actually learn how to deal with is when there isn't routine, and when I have an empty day, I'm so much more likely to fill it with work and which is my routine, which is I know how to work. If I am in front of my computer and I get stuff done by a certain point, by the time it's time to make breakfast for my kids or they wake up, then I feel so much calmer and more able to focus because I feel like I've ticked those boxes...
MARTIN: Right.
ANDERSON: ...Of things that I need to deal with. And if I don't, I really struggle.
MARTIN: But it sounds like for you, even if you don't have a TV show, the routine of that, you will still create structure, depending on...
ANDERSON: I will. Yeah.
MARTIN: ...Whatever your work is. You will create a working...
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...Structure for yourself.
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: But I feel like you've got to have fun too. You seem fun.
ANDERSON: I do.
MARTIN: You - yeah.
ANDERSON: I do have fun.
MARTIN: Come on,
ANDERSON: I do. I have fun. I do.
MARTIN: Last one in this round. One, two or three?
ANDERSON: Three.
MARTIN: When do you feel most like an outsider?
ANDERSON: Oh, always.
MARTIN: Do you? That's your...
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...Natural...
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...Setting?
ANDERSON: Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. And I think partly being an only child, partly being born in America, living in the U.K. And my parents, even though I spoke with a British accent from earlier, you know, like, my first speaking was with a British accent, even though - but my parents were American, and they were called Yanks. So in - when I was in the U.K. And so - and, you know, it was - our family, our extended family was in the States. And in the summertime, we would go to the States and visit them. And so...
MARTIN: And there you're the Brits. So you're...
ANDERSON: Yeah. Yeah. But also, you know, I don't - I'm not good. I'm not a good guest. I'm not good in a club. You don't want me to be - you don't want me to join your club.
MARTIN: You're not a joiner.
ANDERSON: I'm not a good - I'm not a joiner.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: I'm really not.
MARTIN: I get that.
ANDERSON: I'm most comfortable when I'm on the outside. And I'm not - I'm not judging. I'm not...
MARTIN: Right.
ANDERSON: You know, I just - but I also like quiet.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: I like my own space. I focus better when people aren't talking (laughter).
MARTIN: Do you get cast into those roles then a lot? Do you know?
ANDERSON: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure. I'm sure it has a lot to do with that. And part of what I've been trying to do over the last few years, because I've played so many of those, you know, already, you know, women who've already figured it out or are the bosses or this, that...
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...You know, is to do the opposite, is to, you know, have fun with the characters who haven't figured it all out.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: And are really, you know, struggling and...
MARTIN: More vulnerable, maybe.
ANDERSON: More vulnerable.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: Yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: Round three - beliefs. One, two or three?
ANDERSON: One.
MARTIN: One. What do you look forward to when you're older? Oh, do you have, like, a projection, you know?
ANDERSON: I do.
MARTIN: Like the version of the 30-year-old, do you have, like, 7-year-old Gillian in your head?
ANDERSON: I do.
MARTIN: Or 18-year-old?
ANDERSON: But she's - there is part of me that has always slightly fantasized about being in a home (laughter). But what that's about is somebody saying, now it's time to read.
MARTIN: (Laughter). Yes.
ANDERSON: Not time to work.
MARTIN: Yes.
ANDERSON: Not time to work.
MARTIN: Right.
ANDERSON: Now is time to read.
MARTIN: Ah.
ANDERSON: Now is when we're going outside.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: Now is - this is lunchtime.
MARTIN: Yeah. Structure.
ANDERSON: 'Cause I have a tendency to just...
MARTIN: Yeah. There's structure.
ANDERSON: Yeah. Yes, 'cause I do have a tendency, though, even though I know it's just to just to work and forget that there's lunchtime, forget that...
MARTIN: I feel like there are other ways to achieve enjoyable reading that don't require you to go into a nursing home.
ANDERSON: (Laughter).
MARTIN: But I appreciate that the situation is so severe for you (laughter) that's the only way to make it happen.
ANDERSON: That's exactly right.
MARTIN: Like, I cannot wait for my children to put me away.
ANDERSON: A person of authority is...
MARTIN: (Laughter).
ANDERSON: And tell me that I must read for pleasure.
MARTIN: You got it.
ANDERSON: There's another version of it, where I go in on a house somewhere in an exotic place with a bunch of friends, and we just get hooked up to opium.
MARTIN: I mean, that, too. That, too. That's...
ANDERSON: There is that version of my future projection, which also sounds really good.
MARTIN: (Laughter). You just have, like, a mainline pump, and use it...
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...To just keep it...
ANDERSON: Yes. Yes. Yes.
MARTIN: There's not a lot of reading in that one, though.
ANDERSON: No.
MARTIN: There's not going to be a lot of reading (laughter). Oh, my God. I'm into it. I want to come find you when you're 80 on the random island with all your opium and unread books.
ANDERSON: Can I tell you something?
MARTIN: Yes.
ANDERSON: We can start at 75.
MARTIN: We can start at 75.
ANDERSON: Doesn't have to be...
MARTIN: Why? Yeah. Why do we have to wait till 80?
ANDERSON: Actually...
MARTIN: That's too long.
ANDERSON: What are you doing next week?
MARTIN: What are you doing next week (laughter)? There's no time like the present. Life is short.
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: Let's get it going. One, two or three?
ANDERSON: Two.
MARTIN: How often do you think about death?
ANDERSON: Oh, a lot.
MARTIN: Do you?
ANDERSON: Yeah. I think as we're heading closer to it - I mean, I - you know, one of my favorite sayings of all time is youth is wasted on the young, which is just so true. And, you know, inshallah, I am a couple decades away from it, but there are some times - there have been times in the last few years where I've wondered, actually, whether I'm quite close to it. You know, it's health things or people around me really struggling with health stuff, and it - you know, you think about it more and more and more and more, the older you get, obviously. And I go through stages where I'm so - you know, I feel very present and connected to the people that matter most to me and, you know, I'm enjoying the different areas of work that I manifest.
And then there are times when I feel, you know, which I think we all feel, you know, at various points where either one of our kids falls in love for the first time or, you know, and you get, you know, tossed around in this loss and grief and melancholy around the distance between those first moments and today. And then, you know, it's just it's - and so I also find that I go through stages where I either embrace that stuff and I lean into it more, either through literature or talking out loud about it, or where I just I don't want to feel any of it at all because it just feels so sad. And, yeah, so it has - it is definitely more in my frontal cortex than it ever has been before.
MARTIN: But does it have a utility for you? Does it - or is it an unproductive preoccupation?
ANDERSON: Oh, no, I think that the utility is gratitude.
MARTIN: Yeah. Yeah.
ANDERSON: You know. And for anything and everything, no matter what. Even the pain and the loss and, you know - yeah, everything. And I think one of the most - you know, and people talk about it more today than I think they ever have because of things like podcasts and self-help stuff and self - you know, oodles of books about self-care, etc. But, you know, gratitude lists are really, really helpful and important and can be life-changing because they're perspective-changing.
MARTIN: Do you keep something like that on a...
ANDERSON: Not a physical thing. But in a mental...
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...Thing.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: Same. Last one. One, two or three?
ANDERSON: It's going to have to be three, I think.
MARTIN: Three. What's an experience you wish you could give every person?
ANDERSON: I wish that I could give every person a day where they feel completely comfortable in themselves, in their bodies, in their skin, in their position in life, in their family structure, in their work structure and their relationship and everything, where everything - their relationship with their kids - where they feel completely confident, at peace, comfortable, not in fear, safe and, yeah. Yeah.
MARTIN: Have you...
ANDERSON: Just for a day to know what that feels like.
MARTIN: Have you had that day?
ANDERSON: Well, I mean, I feel like that's - you know, that is the greatest privilege. You know, anyone who experiences that that is - it feels like it's for the privileged. It's - you know what I mean?
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: It's the rarest, rarest thing.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: And there was so much disparity and so much fear and so much that's wrong with our systems that don't work for the individuals. And a sense of powerlessness and confusion and rage about - this is not how it's supposed to be. This is not how society is supposed to be and take care of itself. This is not what my relationship with my kids is supposed to be like. This is not what my work is - this is not what my life is meant to be, you know? And, you know, and very often, I think it feels like it - it seems like it's only getting, you know, more complex and more enmeshed and more like we're moving backwards and more like it's - so many more people are struggling and trying to make ends meet.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: And - you know, and so where do you begin to even feel - you know, how can you even begin to have a sense of self-care or...
MARTIN: Yeah. Yeah.
ANDERSON: ...Or peace of mind or faith or, you know? And so...
MARTIN: To feel whole. To feel whole and enough. Yeah.
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: That's a nice wish.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MARTIN: Gillian Anderson, we end the show the same way every time - it requires a trip in our memory time machine. In the memory time machine. You get to revisit one moment from your past. It's not a moment you want to change anything about. It's just a moment that you'd like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose?
ANDERSON: The first thing I went to was my brother, who passed at age 30. He came to visit me at one point when - well, on a couple of occasions. But when I was living in Los Angeles and - for a few days, and I don't have many memories about those days that we were together. But I would want to revisit them so that I could be more present with him and just experience him at that time, before he got sick.
MARTIN: How old were you?
ANDERSON: Well, he - so he was diagnosed at 27, so it was before that, and he was 13 years younger than me. So I was in the middle of shooting "X-Files." And I only really remember him in the house and us on a couple of car rides and stuff. And I just - I know he would have been there for a few days, and I wish I had more of that memory.
MARTIN: Yeah.
ANDERSON: Yeah.
MARTIN: Gillian Anderson, it has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Her new book is called "More." Thank you so much.
ANDERSON: Thank you so much. That was so much fun.
MARTIN: If you liked this episode, and I hope you did, you can drop us a comment and let us know. We love hearing from you. Truly. You can also like the video and subscribe to the channel to get more from WILD CARD.
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